Soft Rye, Snorkel Parkas, And The Most Important Person Ever To Hail From Toledo

Clip: [00:01] Sorry I'm late. Damn, girl! A 55-inch flat screen TV? Oh, that is gonna bring in so much money. Forget porridge. Those orphans are about to have some. Regular soup. Dave: [00:19] This is the Extra Hot Great Podcast, episode 593, for the week of December 15, 2025. I am Bisected Apple David T. Cole, and I'm here with tissue thin pastrami Sarah D. Bunting and Shoe Muffin Tara Ariano. Sarah: [00:37] I melted your mouth. Tara: [00:41] A Holmes upon your head Welcome to Extra Hot Great for another week. We are pre-taping this in the distant past. We haven't even had Halloween yet, but you are about to have Christmas. We brought you a whole load of cannons for your stocking. So we're going to go through them. Dave: [01:12] Also, Reese's pumpkins will be in your stocking. Tara: [01:14] Yep. Sarah: [01:14] Mm-hmm. Tara: [01:15] Yes. Dave: [01:16] Don't worry about it. Tara: [01:18] We are going to be considering canon submissions by listeners just like you, without whom we could not do this podcast, quite literally. Dave: [01:25] And maybe actually you. Tara: [01:27] And maybe actually you. In the case of three, actually you. Clip: [01:33] Matthew Perry's death is the reason I'm finally submitting this episode for the canon, but it's not the only reason. Season four, episode twenty of The West Wing, Evidence of Things Not Seen, is the platonic ideal of a West Wing episode. I think it's the last best thing Sorkin wrote for T V. It has a clever story structure. the right balance of humor and sentimentality, the myth of good government, and all of this feeds a very talented cast working at their full powers. Coming as it does toward the end of Aaron Zorkin's last season, right before a major cliffhanger, This episode is the quiet intake of breath before the season hurtles to its dramatic end. It's a Friday night in the Oval and everyone's gathered to play poker. Because I'm one of those people, I happened to know that Aaron Sorkin and Josh Molina were avid poker players. You see that in the rituals of the game itself. Clip one. We've got pastrami from Krupins. It's tissue paper thin. Roast beef, corned beef, turkey, Russian dressing, coslaw, and seedless rye. And winning the hard-earned money of your coworkers, this is what I call a night off. Squeeze this piece of rye bread. Now, what do I do? Blink, and you'll miss Alice and Janny CJ smelling the rye bread after this exchange. Poker and the way it prizes bluffing as a strategy becomes a metaphor for various degrees of interpersonal and political gamesmanship that night. Most obviously, when a spy plane gets stuck in Russia, the President has to make a choice between telling the Russian President an absurd lie that might escalate things further, or the truth, which might do the same. Clip 2 Are we getting somewhere? Oh, yeah. You know, there was a thought that since Kaleningrad is the only non-contiguous Russian state, you can make like you were just informing Shigoran of a rescue mission that barely concerned them. And what do I do when Shigoran tells me that Hawaii is not really a part of America and he wants to change the alphabet to Cyrillic? Seymour. What does he do? What the hell? Would you please? I'm not gonna have you tell Chigora in the Kaliningrad's not part of Russia. What area are we trolling in? What area? Yes. We weren't spying on Russia. We were spying for Russia. We were spying for him. Yes, sir. Okay. This phone call that you're going to set up with Shigarin, it's like for a White House blooper's reel or something. Four episodes from a season finale is a funny time to introduce a new character, but that's what they did. Matthew Perry's Joe Quincy is a lawyer who interviews with Josh Lyman for a job at the White House. His handsomeness was downplayed during friends, but here it's acknowledged in one of the most blatantly flirty exchanges between Josh and his assistant Donna. Yes, it's a bit icky, except for the many fans out there who shipped them. Clip three. There are some who would consider him handsome. I don't personally, because you're the only one I think is handsome. Of course I'll long to be alive because of how handsome you are and powerful. Your sense of humor is a bit of a high wire act, isn't it? You're really trying to thread the needle. And half of it you don't even get. Perry is so understated throughout the episode. He listens more than he talks, but conveys so much with a look, a smile, a one-word response. As the night wears on, his chemistry with Bradley Whitford is palpable, clearly an audition for the ill fated Studio Sixty. Ultimately, Joe is revealed to be a noble Republican, the kind Sorkin loves. Clip four Why do you want to work here? I like public service. I want to serve and you guys are the only ones left. Why haven't you signed the questionnaire? Because I can't. You lied on it. Yeah. Which question? 75. Have you ever done anything that would reflect poorly on the president? What did you do? I didn't vote for him. That's really very sweet. The evening's quiet is disrupted by a sniper shooting at the White House. It's clearly a callback to the show's highest point, the season two premiere in The Shadow of Two Gunmen, when the President and Josh Lyman are shot, and its pendant episode, Noel, when Josh confronts his PTSD. Just as those episodes set up Season Two's constitutional crisis, this one foreshadows the one that would close the season. With Easter eggs aplenty, there's a lot of fanservice throughout the episode. and multiple strains of flirty vibes across all the couples Donna and Josh, CJ and Toby, Zoe and Charlie, and of course the fidelity between the President and Leo. I've wondered if it was Sorkin's love letter to his fans, his last chance to do so before the plot-heavy final three episodes to follow. If so, then CJ's unerring faith in standing an egg on end seems like a love letter to the people who made the show. Some kind of muted acknowledgement about how much they achieved together and the sometimes bumpy road they survived as characters and humans. This episode is the last perfect moment in the West Wing universe, and I hope you agree it has earned a place in the canon. Sarah: [06:48] Thank you so much, Julie. I was looking around. The internet to look for commentary about this episode after I watched it for myself. And Vulture called it in their sort of master ranking of every single episode of the West Wing. the last cozy sorkin episode we get before everything goes crazy at the end of season four. So I thought this might be motivating your uh motivating your pitch. I mean, it is a very typical West Wing episode. I think you're right about that. Where we may differ is on whether that's a good thing. Like the Josh Donna thing that you're like, it's icky, but it's also fan service. And I'm like, nope. You needed to stop it, icky. Having come to the show late, Josh was always a struggle for me. I really like Bradley Whitford. He is very charismatic and cute. This character is repellent to me. I want to strangle him with his backpack. This episode did not move the ball on that. But there are also very many of those West Wing moments that you're like Fine. Like everybody kind of talks the same, has the same rhythms, but the dialogue is Really well done. Like it's very studied and it's very in love with itself, and it also thinks it's very well done, but it's well done. And that moment where CJ, like the egg Stands up and she's like, guys, like very quietly, so it doesn't tip over. Guys, it's good. The actors sell a lot of it. I'm still not sure how I'm going to vote on this one, but I think the main selling point for me was that moment which you. Clipped at the end where Matthew Perry is like delivering this sort of smug but also optimistic Dialogue and the reveal about his character very in love with itself, very pleased with itself, but it really made me miss him. Intensely. And I was like, not a camp follower of his career. I wasn't especially a friends watcher, but you really see in that scene what He might have been and done as a, you know, in statesman roles, as the president, as Whatever, like Studio 60 had its problems, but I would not say he was necessarily one of those problems, and just Seeing him at work was a pleasure, but also bittersweet for obvious reasons, which you referred to right up top in your presentation. So am I entirely convinced that that scene shouldn't be a Snoof, tiny cannon. No, not totally convinced, but I'm gonna listen to what everyone else has to say and then decide, because Watching him do his thing was like a, you know, reuniting with him as an actor. And that's not a bad thing. We voted shit in for or less. So thank you again for the presentation. Tara. Tara: [09:49] Yeah, it's hard for me to watch this divorced from its context. Like it's hard for me to send myself back to how I received it at the time that it first aired. Which was very different politically, duh, understatement of the year. But also, like, I just can't buy into Sorkin's writing anymore because the way that he likes to sort of treat Politics and policy as abstractions, where it's just like, well, I want to do public service. Like, well, what does that mean to a Republican versus a Democrat? You know what I mean? Like, what service do you want to perform for the public? Which is never really explored. And when we hear about Bartlett policies, it's like, you wait, you want to reform Social Security? That's your thing? This in this glorious democratic age? That's your gambit. What? And it's the same here. It's like th there's an idea of service and without any sort of like specifics pinned to it. Dave: [10:45] Abortions for some, miniature flags for others. Tara: [10:47] Right. Sarah: [10:48] China American flag, yeah. Tara: [10:49] Exactly. So that's a problem for me on top of like, as Julie admitted, like, he's a noble Republican, the kind Zorkin loves. Like, yeah, the only kind that he can write. He, it's like. the ones that are basically Democrats, except they want taxes to be lower, and then the wild-eyed like lunatics that come up rarely on the show. I forgot that this was not from the era where Donna and Josh are a couple and she's acting like this. Sarah: [11:17] Yeah. Tara: [11:17] I was like, what? Sarah: [11:18] Yeah. Tara: [11:19] I mean, that's. Sarah: [11:19] That's what my notes said. I was like, wait, they're not together for another three seasons. Tara: [11:23] I that's wild. Sarah: [11:24] Ew, call HR, both of you. Tara: [11:27] Yes. Well, and also call HR because Josh in multiple different scenes to different scene partners is talking about how hot Ainsley was. Like, Just 'cause she's not here doesn't make that okay either. Sarah: [11:37] Yeah No, it sure doesn't. Tara: [11:42] And the card stuff, it's like this is So corny. It's very of its time. It really marks it as an early 2000s kind of a thing. I appreciate what Julie's trying to do in framing the whole standing an egg on its bottom or whatever, standing an egg on its end thing. But to me, this is just another like a woman is being dumb and men are condescending to her, which is mostly what we see in the episode, in my opinion. Sarah: [12:06] Hm, yeah. Tara: [12:08] I thought the Leo Bartlett stuff was good. That was my favorite part. Although you can't give Martin Sheen a line where he uses like colloquially because he can't sell it. It just sounds weird. Sarah: [12:20] No, no. Tara: [12:21] It's. It's like for a White House bloopers, real like, no, no, he doesn't, Jet Bartlett doesn't say that. Sarah: [12:27] No, he doesn't. Tara: [12:29] I appreciate what you're doing. I understand why you picked it, but I don't know if I can vote for it unless. Dave really blows my mind with his comments on it because there was a lot for me to not love, I guess. Dave: [12:39] Get ready. Here we go. Sarah: [12:42] Hmm, yeah. Dave: [12:42] Yeah, Sorkin is a tough sell for this crowd at the best of times. I know we voted in West Wing episodes into the canon for their West Winginess. This one feels typical to me. Sarah: [12:53] It's been a long time. One ninety six, I believe, was the last time. Dave: [12:55] Yeah. Yeah, this feels typical, not exceptional to me. The poker thing is like right up there with me, like with Star Trek loving their fucking Shakespeare analogies and actually Star Trek loving their poker games as well. Sarah: [13:10] Mm-hmm. Dave: [13:12] Next Generation, I think they've had at least two episodes where that featured heavily. Sarah: [13:13] Mm-hmm. Dave: [13:17] including the finale, which would be relatively contemporary with this, right? This would be during it would be before this, but not too far, geologically speaking. There were parts that I really enjoyed. I think my favorite part was Leo telling CJ to pinch the rye bread. And she's like, is that it? Tara: [13:37] Yeah, now what do I do? Dave: [13:37] What else do I do? You know, like, now what? Tara: [13:38] Mm-hmm. Sarah: [13:39] Yeah, now it happens. Dave: [13:40] Yeah, I was like, all right, sure. That's weird, weird old man telling you to touch bread. And you're like, all right, and I'm out. But speaking about CJs, you know, she's going on and on about how to balance an egg during the equinox, and she's sure she read it somewhere. And they start looking it up on the internet, and there are no sites that are saying the same thing. And she's still going on with this notion that it is possible. I'm wondering if CJ becomes a 2025 conspiracy nut. Tara: [14:09] I mean Yeah. Dave: [14:09] It feels like the road is being paved, and that the end where she actually balances the egg is. Because of the radio waves and the 2G towers next to her. And this is all like just her imagining that she's right. Think about it. Why can't we use real country names for things that happen in places Kurfakistan or whatever the hell it was? Just like it It landed in Georgia. You know, like, fine. All right. Like, what is Georgia going to do about it? Are they going to, the country, not the state? Is it a liability thing that Georgians are going to sue NBC for talking about Georgia a country in the world? No. Stop it. Use real countries, please. Josh is half their demeanor throughout the whole interview, all the different parts as they get interrupted each time, is insulting and dismissive. I don't even know after that why Matthew Perry's character would want to stay here. Never mind the whole fact that he is. Sarah: [15:08] Yeah, the minute they lift the crash, I'd be like, you know what, you're unprofessional and an asshole. Tara: [15:12] Bye. Dave: [15:14] Yeah, exactly. Sarah: [15:15] Goodbye. Dave: [15:17] You know, there is something very soothing about the rhythm of the dialogue of an Aaron's organ production, and this is. No different. It's sort of like when you idly shift from foot to foot when you're standing. It's just something that you do, and you don't notice you're doing it, but you're like, oh, this feels good. I feel like I'm doing something. It's kind of like that. It's the foot shift of television. But otherwise, I thought this was like just fine, just okay. It didn't feel elevated in any particular way over a lot of stuff. The fact that it's the last good Sorkin episode, sure, fine, but that doesn't really mean it's canon worthy. To me, it's just kind of a footnote. Dear submitter, you're always up against it when you give us a West Wing and I kinda oh! One last thing. Sorry. The part I hated the most about this episode was the Foley work when CJ is putting ice in a tumbler and not marbles because they actually don't use ice on set. Listen to this ice. Clip: [16:13] It only works for the vernal equinox? Yeah. You know what's more likely? That it doesn't work at all? That's right. It does. I've seen it. Dave: [16:19] Those are marbles. Tara: [16:21] Yeah. Dave: [16:21] She's putting marbles in a tumbler. Sarah: [16:21] That's like a roulette wheel. Tara: [16:23] Mm-hmm. Sarah: [16:23] Oh, my God. Dave: [16:24] Shall we put this through the official vote? Sarah: [16:27] Sure. Dave: [16:27] All right, Sarah D. Bunting, what say you for this episode of The West Wing? Sarah: [16:32] It made me really miss. Spencer and Perry, and to sort of be back when they were alive and getting to do this dialogue was a pleasure. But the rest of it is Actually, a little too sorkiny for me. So thank you for the presentation, but I must decline to vote for it. Tara: [16:52] Yeah, I really appreciate the bravery of bringing us anything sorking because I'm never mad to think about it, but I Still, unfortunately, most of the time, I feel like my opinions are good for. So, thank you for your submission, but it's a no for me. Dave: [17:08] All right, I'm going to say no as well. So that means as we walked down the halls of our house, looking at each other, talking The West Wing Season 4, Episode 20, which, by the way, is Aaron Sorgan's favorite episode number. Am I right? Evidence of things not seen. You are hereby not inducted into the extra Hawkery Cannon. All right, let's move on with our second canon submission of the episode. This one comes from Leslie. Take it away, Leslie. Clip: [17:49] Well, you really opened a door when you recently inducted a Would I Lie to You episode into the canon, but it was not Series VI, Episode VI, which in my opinion is the best one ever. I started watching What I Lie to You because of Taskmaster. There's a significant Taskmaster crossover and this episode has one of the highest Taskmaster concentrations. So it's not a coincidence that it's also one of the best. For the uninitiated, the premise of the show is that panelists read a story and try to make the other team think it's true if it's a lie and think it's a lie if it's true. There are two teams, headed by David Mitchell and Taskmaster veteran Lee Mack. This week, David's team includes Greg Davis and Richard Osman. Richard is a Taskmaster standout in my opinion, and Greg is, of course, Greg. Lee's team includes the very best Taskmaster contestant of all time, being comparable Bob Mortimer. By default, Bob is always on Lee's team, because early on production realized the comedy cold and David trying and failing to control himself during Bob's stories. Lee also has a requisite non-comedian actor who does a passable job, largely because she's surrounded on all sides by geniuses. The show starts with a story from Gregg about a game he made up in school. At school, I invented a game called Snorkel Parker Music Practice Room. There we are. Lee's team, what do you think? What's the game called again? It was called Snorkel Parker Music Practice Room. Right, and can you describe the game to us? Myself and several friends, we all had snorkel parkers. What is a snorkel parker for some of the younger viewers? It's a large hooded coat with a fur-lined Or the one that comes out at the front, Yes Foot. And you can you can zip it up so that it comes right up and uh so that only your eyes are visible. Can you describe the rules? Imagine we've never met, I've got my snorkel parker. What would happen next? Well, then you and I, Lee, will go to the music practice room when you zip up your snorkel parker, and then you, when someone's Practicing their violin with a violin teacher in the music practice room. You duck down below the window and then you just come up with your snorkel parker on. Highlights that can't be captured in audio include a demo of the game from Greg, David, and Richard. and Greg asks who wants to play the game, and most of the audience and many on the panel raise their hands. The next story is from Richard. This clip is a little long But worth a listen for the banter between him and Lee. I think Richard is one of the few people who can stand up to Lee for being lightning fast on his feet. Bob gets a few in as well. I once buried a badger with the banker from Deal or No Deal. Please, team. I know the programme, but who is that? Who is the banker? We never hear the banker, do we? No, I'm not allowed to t if I told you, I would have to bury you alongside the badger, I'm afraid. Oh, so the badger found out. Is that what happened to him? What's burying the badger a euphemism for? This banker. Can you describe him to me, please? Yes, I could do. He's just a guy, like you and I. Somewhere in between. Somewhere in the middle. Why do you know the guy from I know that I way back when I I used to be the producer of Deal I Know Deal. Right, and what's his name? He is called The Banker. Now, what's his real name? Can I tell you what his real name is? It's on the credits of the show. Tell us! What does it say on the credits of the show? It says the banker as himself. Why was the badger dead? We hit it with a car, unfortunately. What were we doing in a car with him? About seventy. We were on holiday together. Where were you on holiday? Badger Country, Cornwall. Was Edmund there? Sarah: [21:43] Badge. Clip: [21:43] Sorry, I'm not part of this. I'm not a girl. It's a good question, though, Greg. Was Noela? No, it was a holiday. The token actor then tells a story about babysitting her neighbour's stuffed dog. For a non-comedian, it's not bad. But I think it's mostly saved because David, Greg, Richard, and Bob were all at the top of their game with the questions that they asked and the comments that they made. The next round is the This Is My Round, where they bring out a person and one team has to all pretend that they know her, and the other team has to guess who is telling the truth. The guest for this episode is a woman named Pauline, and David and Richard make up stories about her being a scout leader and a Snoop Dogg fan, respectively. Greg says she's his mom. The vote on this is hysterical. Lee asked Greg to stand next to Pauline because Bob noticed a slight physical resemblance. He's literally a half a human taller than her, which dissuades them from voting for him. Of course she's Greg's mom. Finally, the iconic story with a direct link to Taskmaster, where Bob says he can rip an apple in half with his bare hands. I think this is the first What I Light to You I ever saw, and it was a direct result of Bob's water cooler moment on Taskmaster. Some of the humor here is entirely visual, including Bob's hysterical presentation tutorials. But the deliberation was a great way to end the show, and as we all know from Taskmaster, Bob can really rip an apple apart with his bare hands. So what's it gonna be? Oh I really want it to be true but it isn't true I don't think. You can't pull on an apple apart can you? You can't just rip it in half. I s I so want you to be able to if you and I can't. Sure. I've never tried. Have you ever tried it? If I had an apple here, I can have a friend. I think if those two can't do it, David, with the most respect, I highly unlikely you're going to put it on. Tremendously, frighteningly strong hands. I found out to my own cost. So you think it's a lie? I'm afraid I think it's a lie. Okay. Well, I'll go with the giant. You're going to say it's a lie. All right, you're saying it's a lie. Bob. I think it's fair to say you could clip this entire episode if only you had the time. I hope this convinces you to enter Would I Lie to You Series 6, Episode 6, into the Extra Hot Grate Canon. If you don't, two large men will sneak up to your window and snorkel parkas, bury a badger, and rip an apple in half and throw it at your head. Dave: [24:03] Thank you, Leslie. I don't know what Leslie has against Patsy Kensett, but that is the actor that she would not name. Like Voldemort in her presentation. So I don't know what bad blood we got there, but that's who she was referring to. And honestly, the only way to make this episode better Would be, and I'm realizing that I apparently have a big crush on Morgana Robinson, but that was who I would sub in, especially if we want to go all Taskmaster for this. to make this episode even better. Although maybe you just need one person who's sort of like the outlier, she does laugh a lot, and that does add something, I suppose. Really solid episode of Would I Lie to You, a format that is sort of genius in its simplicity. Really good stories. The one From Patsy, that we don't hear is one about this story where she says she has an elderly couple living next door to her, and she does them the favor. of pretending to feed and water their dead stuffed terrier. Sounds absolutely ludicrous. And it is, as it turns out. But it gives us this one moment for Bob Mortimer. And it's just one of those Bob Mortimer moments where you just like, you have to pause it. And you're like, I wish I could get into the mind of Bob Mortimer, why he said that in the moment, why he believes this. But here's the clip, and I absolutely loved it. Clip: [25:27] If I had a stuffed dog that was stood up, I'd put one of its legs in the bucket, in a bucket, then I'd always know where that bucket was. Dave: [25:37] If he had a stuffed dog, he would just put a bucket under one of his legs, so we'd always know where that bucket was. All right, sure, fine. Sarah: [25:45] Can't argue with it. Tara: [25:46] Mm-hmm. Dave: [25:46] Yeah. Sarah: [25:47] Yeah. Dave: [25:47] The actual story where Greg Davies details all the things about this fight that his mom sees, and then the mom witnessing his first fight, and he's got these. Tic-tac, sort of sounding candies get punched out of them. She thinks he's getting the teeth punched out of them. And there's just all these like ludicrous details. The kid that he's fighting, another just Plain Jane English kid is called Chinese Day for reasons nobody knows because they Greg P Because he wore a hat, maybe? Tara: [26:13] Mm-hmm. Sarah: [26:14] 'Cause he wore a hat. Tara: [26:15] He wore a hat. Dave: [26:17] Yeah, that's the answer. Really great story, and nobody really believes it's his mom, you know, the way that they're discussing it after. But the capper, when the host Rob says, you know, it must have been horrible to see Greg fight his first fight and he thought he was losing his teeth. She just smiles and said, Oh, it was wonderful. Deranged mother, all the stories you hear about her on Taskmaster. You're like, oh, I believe all those now because she seems to enjoy violence with her son involved. Tara: [26:42] Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yep. Dave: [26:48] Maybe my favorite part beyond the bucket for the dog's leg is right at the end, where Bob Mortimer actually demonstrates with an apple that Rob picks out of his box of apples that he keeps under his desk. Sarah: [27:00] This trusty box of apples so funny. Dave: [27:02] Thank you. And he rips it apart. First, he can't quite do it, and everybody's like conjecturing what happens if he can't do it after all this. But he actually does it and they shoot to a shot of the other team. Greg Davies has this look of absolute Pure joy. Tara: [27:20] He's he's Yep. Dave: [27:21] And he's like, he's so excited. He goes to clap, but he can't. He's sort of like Hercules, Hercules, kind of from the clumps. Tara: [27:29] Mhm. Dave: [27:29] And he is just so happy that Bob Mortimer's story was true, and that, in fact, an apple can't be ripped in half in the manner he described. Sarah: [27:30] Uh I really enjoyed this as well. Dave: [27:39] Absolutely really good from start to finish. There's very little fat on this episode. Great submission. And I do agree with Leslie that this is probably even better than the one that's already in the canon. Tara: [27:53] Gosh. Dave: [27:54] Yeah. Tara: [27:54] Well, Sarah, why don't you go in the middle and I'll go I'll close it up. Sarah: [27:59] I think there is some fat on it. Think I agree that this one is better than the one that's already in because I think that one, that actor or like the straight man was just a little like it was just a little cludgier. It didn't feel as Well oiled machine as this episode does. The Apple twisting story does seem like, all right, if this is supposed to be a quick fire round, let's quicken the shit up. Like Bob Mortimer is funny, but like let's Let's move it along. Dave: [28:30] Yeah, but that's pretty typical for the show. They call it quickfire, but sometimes they just do one that goes on for five minutes. Sarah: [28:37] Yeah, but it It did sort of seem like, all right, well, twist or get off the pot. But then, so the way that he's just talking about the apple twisting like a coach would talk about it, or like Is it I can remember the feeling because that just sent me? Dave: [28:48] Yeah, I got a great clip if you just uh it's It was really good. It's not that, but it's just him describing the twisting. Clip: [29:01] A lot of people think you need to twist. You don't need to twist. You don't need to twist. You just twist. You don't need to twist. How do you get the full apart? Won't your hands just slide away from it? I just thought you'd need to twist. If you twist, you fail. Twisting equals tears. Sarah: [29:22] I'm going to get a t-shirt with that printed on it. So good. I may also get when I'm done designing my Angriel Giraffe shirt Windmill of Bones is the most perfect description of like a young, grawny teenager fighting, especially one who ends up being, as someone says about Greg Davies, eight foot six. This was just like the way that they have been doing this together for a long time, but they're still like really into it and looking for ways to make it funny and to just do little bits within bits. Like my trusty box of apples was very funny, and their willingness to just like throw away little lines that they don't need the audience to even respond. I liked that. I liked that a lot. Like when he's talking about, or Richard, I guess, is talking about saying a prayer during the Badger burial. And, like, Lord, protect this Badger and his family. And then someone on the other side's like, Well, you could have said that a few hours earlier. Couldn't you? Saved his life. I don't know. It's a really interesting show in that you're like, oh boy, like this premise is going to be a lot. Like, this is going to be a lot of theater kid stuff. And then it always pays off, at least in the ones that we have watched for the Canon. So, yeah, this was very funny. And my trusty Box of Apples and I will wait to see how the vote goes. Tara: [30:55] Yeah, this is a great selection. You know, the best episodes of Would I Lie to You are the ones with Greg Davies or Bob Murtimer, and the fact that this has both is really just an embarrassment of riches. Richard is also like more subdued, but he picks his spot so well. He's also a very good guest here. When they're talking about the apple, and he says he hopes it's true, because then they'll make him do it. And it's like, yeah, you're right. Like, go ahead and produce the show. But, you know, they do, of course. I also, like Dave, was just entranced by how just overcome Greg is to see Bob actually do this thing he didn't think he could. Like, it's so childlike. Sarah: [31:33] I know. Childlike wonder, totally. Tara: [31:36] Yes. Sarah: [31:37] Yeah. Tara: [31:37] And the fact that it's his mom, and that's not even just like, this is Pauline, she's my mom. Like, no, they also have a story. You know, to me, it's obvious because I thought they looked alike, but still, having that be the payoff that it really is his mother. Sarah: [31:51] Me too. Tara: [31:55] And she came to this show and she like usually I think the the This Is My People are must be coached to like not react to anything. But in this case, they couldn't, you know, there's only so much you can direct Greg Davis' mother because she's just giggling the whole time. I mean, and the other people's stories too. But, like, yeah, the moment where she. Just as like it was wonderful. It's like, okay, wow, weird. I guess the part about her punching a hole through a door when she was play fighting with Greg's dad when he was a kid is also true. Dave: [32:26] Yeah. Tara: [32:28] That was not an embellishment. Dave: [32:29] Real um Marge collecting Mill House's teeth energy from her. Tara: [32:33] Very that. Oh, speaking of which, polos are like winter green lifesavers. They're little round candies. Dave: [32:37] Oh, okay. Tara: [32:39] They come in a roll like that. Dave: [32:39] All right. Yeah, yeah. Okay. Tara: [32:41] I agree with Leslie that like anytime there's like an actor or a radio host some of the time or a reality Show person or like someone a presenter someone or someone from Coronation Street or something. Like they're they're usually the ones you hope They don't go to very much, and they don't, like, they know enough to just give them a story they can get through quickly because they're bad at improvising and they are not convincing and are boring. Dave: [33:07] Yeah. I remember once they had a soccer player, excuse me, football player, and he was so bad at it. Tara: [33:11] Uh-huh. Oh, yeah. Dave: [33:13] Yeah. Tara: [33:13] Yes. Like, there's it's bad when in the intro you're like, well, that person's going to be a dud, and they usually are. Patsy is fine. Sarah: [33:22] Mhm. Tara: [33:22] And that's fine. Sarah: [33:24] Best you can hope for, I think. Dave: [33:25] Is she known for something beyond being the girl from Lethal Weapon 2, which is the only thing I know her from? She like have a TV series in Britain everybody loves or something. Tara: [33:33] I don't know, maybe. She was I I know her from just from movies. Dave: [33:36] Seems like she probably plays somebody's boss at one of those detective shows or something like that. Tara: [33:41] She was like a Sienna Miller before Sienna Miller, basically. Dave: [33:43] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Sarah: [33:44] Mm-hmm. Yeah. Tara: [33:46] That's that was her lane. Dave: [33:46] Yeah. Now you know who she is now. Burnt Sienna Miller. Tara: [33:49] Burnt Sienna Miller. Dave: [33:50] Yep. Tara: [33:51] Exactly. So, this was a great presentation of a really undeniable episode. Would I say this is better than the one I pitched? I don't know. I'm pretty fond of Sam Campbell, but. Dave: [34:00] Sam Campbell's stuff is really good. Is that also the one Bob Mortimer is in that one too, right? Tara: [34:05] No, no, no, no, that's a different one. Dave: [34:05] No, he wasn't. Okay, it's not the one where he's describing the robot lion because that was a really good one, too. Sam Campbell is really good. I think this one is just like more solid more often than that one, but both great. Tara: [34:16] Sure. They're both yes, it's not a competition. We can vote them both in, and perhaps we will. Dave: [34:22] All right. So anything else to say before we make this official? Tara: [34:27] Now let's do that. Dave: [34:27] All right, Sarah D. Bunting, what say you for What I'd Lie to You Series Six, Episode Six? Sarah: [34:33] This angry old giraffe is fully in favor of the windmill of bones entering the cannon. Dave: [34:38] Tari Ariano, me too. Tara: [34:39] Yes, for me as well. Dave: [34:41] So That does indeed mean that what I lie to you, Series Six, Episode Six, you are hereby inducted into the extra hot gray cannon. All right, we have arrived at our last canon of the episode. This one is from Emily. Take it away, Emily. Clip: [35:15] The gifted young lady didn't know what to do. Should she fly off to Hollywood for the big audition? Or should she stay in Toledo for a high school production of Damn Yankees? So she asked her father. And her father replied, What do you think is the right decision? And she answered. I think I made a commitment, so I probably can't break that. Yes, Chief. But what about the big audition? Why, she taped it herself and mailed it off to Los Angeles. Well, it was a long shot, but if you don't dream, you'll never know if your dreams can happen. And when Kevin Williamson from the WB received the tape, he knew he had found his star. And the tomboy best friend role of Little Joey Potter on Dawson's Creek would be played by Toledo's very own, Katie Holmes. Hi Extra Hopgrite. Today I'm presenting AP Bio, Season 3, Episode 8. Katie Holmes Day for your consideration to induct into the canon. Television has a long history of holiday specials with countless examples of the sitcom Christmas episode and its many well trodden tropes. We also now have a long history of comedic riffs on those tropes. AP Bio continues this tradition by introducing its own holiday dedicated to Toledo, Ohio's hometown hero. As a standout episode of the series, I think Katie Holmes' Day is canonworthy for its comedy based in a richly constructed world which is never overexplained or dwelt on too long, and the way it takes a simple premise to absurd its extremes. Characteristically, AP Bio teacher Jack Griffin has no knowledge of or interest in a holiday based around the motto Dream big, Katie Did. But unlike Jack, the rest of the school is overtaken with the Katy Homesday spirit, which we see in the B and C plots as the other teachers organize a charity rummage sale and Principal Durbin prepares to take on a big acting role in the annual Katy Homesday pageant. And in case you missed any of those key points about Katie mailing in her audition tape, and because a holiday special requires a musical composition, there's also now a folksy jug band roaming the halls of Whitlock High, setting the Katie Holmes story to song. See the Katie, hear her sing In every musical fall and spring. She had a commitment she couldn't break, so she sanitate. The main story of the episode centers on Jack, whose students enlighten him about the many traditions of Katie Homesday, which are all unhinged and perfect. They include climbing through a window, like Joey Potter on Dawson's Creek, leaving your shoes out overnight full of wishes to send to Katie in Hollywood, then waking up to your shoes filled with blueberry muffins the next day, and more. Please play Clip Three. Yeah, at 8. 47 tomorrow night you kiss someone on the forehead, because that's when Katie had the talk with her wise dad, which he ended with a forehead kiss. Even more traditions are referenced through a fleeting chalkboard visual, revealing gems like placing a bucket of creek water under your bed and Katie on the Gatie, which are never discussed or described further. Jack, of course, can't take this revelry seriously and quickly dismisses the student's faith in the power of dreams and Katie Holmes. Most AP Bio episodes have the students help Jack in a personal revenge mission, but here Jack turns his efforts to sabotaging Katie Holmes' Day merely for the joy it brings to others, which naturally irks him. He manages to enlist one student, Marissa, who joins him on the dark side when she learns she didn't land her dream role as Katie Holmes in the pageant and is once again relegated to play the role of unnamed WB assistant. The plot proceeds with a series of classic holiday episode tropes. Jack and Marissa pay homage to the Grinch and spend the rest of Katie Holmes' Day Eve stealing the shoes full of wishes. When the community rebounds from this loss stronger than ever in their faith of Katie Holmes, Dak hashes an alternate plan to spoil the pageant. sabotaging the scripted story so that the on stage Katie's dreams never come true, meaning that, by extension, neither do the dreams of Toledo. The turn of the episode comes with the unlikely emergence of a true Katie Holmes Day miracle via the intervention of an elderly, white haired man who delivers a VHS tape that fulfills Jack's throwaway wish for more time with his deceased mother. And of course, having now experienced the Katie Holmes magic himself Jack must resolve to save Katy Holmestay and reverse the plans he had put in motion. Meanwhile at the pageant, Marissa is proceeding with the sabotage as planned. inverting her role as assistant to become a villainous gatekeeper preventing fictional Katie from her fateful meeting with Kevin Williamson. But I think I can see him. Oh, ring, ring! Hello? Actually, I just found out. Kevin Williamson's dead. Dawson's Creek is canceled. Bye-bye. Marissa, why? Don't do this! Let her meet him! I love how Marissa relishes her role in tormenting the audience here, and Dale the janitor screaming, let her meet him at the end. Also, the way that the pageant is based on this mythology, which glorifies and idolizes Kevin Williamson and the WB, is both so silly and so earnest, and it gets me every time. As expected of any holiday special, we get a happy ending as Jack saves the day with a rousing speech, and Marissa gets to close out the pageant with Katie's famous line What won't translate in the audio form is how the scene cuts to different characters all mouthing along to the words they know by heart. You are Joey Potter. Welcome to Dawson's Creek. He did it. The sweet son of a bitch did it. Mr. Williamson, I have something to tell you. When the camera is rolling, I'll be this Joey Potter. But when you say cut, I will return to and always be. Toledo's very own, Katie Holmes. There's something truly masterful in the writing of Katie Holmes Day, which essentially takes a paragraph From the Katie Holmes Wikipedia page and turns it into a full-fledged multi-day holiday celebration with its own lore, traditions, and morality play. The absurdity also stems from the specificity of lived experience, since show creator Michael Bryan comes from Toledo and, as discussed in a decider interview when the episode was released. The holiday may be fake, but the Toledo Pride in Katie Holmes and the story of her Dawson's Creek Audition is all real. What elevates the comedic effect for me is that Katie Holmes is probably a decade past her maximum cultural relevance in the year twenty twenty. Sorry to Ms. Holmes. which contrasts with the character's outsized show of pride and devotion. In addition to the writing around this bonker's holiday, as an episode, I think Katie Homes Day is an exemplar for how sitcoms can work with large ensemble casts to maximum effect. Parallel to her role in the pageant Marissa is a character who has been relegated to background and one-liners in past episodes, but now has her time to shine, while favorites like Heather and Victor punch up scenes rather than take the spotlight. So, like Kevin Williamson momentously welcomed Katie Holmes to Dawson's Creek, I hope you will vote to welcome Katie Holmes Day into the canon. Thank you. Tara: [43:01] Thank you, Emily. I was holding this one back until we were in the Christmas corridor, which we Certainly are now. This is one that we also talked about on the Patreon for our sister podcast, Again With Again With This, where we are talking about Dawson's Creek currently, and certainly this is relevant to that. I think we talked about it the week it was her birthday when we had. First, just gotten into the Dawsons run. Sarah: [43:23] Mm-hmm. Tara: [43:25] I love this episode. Sarah: [43:25] Yeah. Tara: [43:27] I will make no bones about it. For all of the reasons you said, it is so funny how deep they go into the lore. And the idea that like this is this is tr these are traditions that have been hang going on s for at this point, you know, by 2020, at least 20 years since The show premiered in 1998, and that's how long they've been proud of her. And I'm glad that you mentioned the Blackboard with all of the Assumedly, like pitches from the writer's room, like Katie on the gaty that don't go anywhere, but like they still found a way to work them in, even if they weren't major parts of the story. I also love how some of the traditions make sense. Like, you know, they have pretzels because that's Katie's favorite food. Crawl in through the window because that's what she did on the show. Blueberry muffins, no relation to Dawson's Creek or Katie Holmes that I am aware of, and why it's green. Dave: [44:18] I was gonna ask. Sarah: [44:20] Yeah, not explained. Dave: [44:20] Okay. All right. Tara: [44:23] Why the colors are green and gold? I don't know that either, other than that those are the colors of AP Bio, generally. plus orange and blue as well. I'm sorry that she didn't include the part where everyone goes to the lawn of Katie Holmes's former house and like yells things in unison with the people who bought the house and did not realize when they did so. This was going to happen every year. Please don't put us through this again. Dave: [44:49] Please hope what that's really cut. Tara: [44:49] My condition has worsened. And they're saying that along with the old lady as well. Dave: [44:53] Yeah. Tara: [44:54] It's so funny. Dave: [44:55] Yeah, real breaking bad pizza house vibes. Tara: [44:57] Yes, yes. Sarah: [44:58] Oh, God, yeah. Tara: [44:59] The reason this works is because holiday episodes do have all of these tropes. I'm glad you mentioned the interview with Decider as well, because it's really funny and sort of goes into the mind of like Into the creator's mind of why he did this. They're a short-run show. They weren't supposed to do a Christmas episode. And so this was their workaround for how to get the spirit and the tropes of those. Episodes in by just inventing a holiday that is like Christmas coded and yet completely bonkers. The idea that a whole town would, as Jack puts it, like Glom onto a white girl who has like eyes and hair or something, like he can barely remember what she looks like. Dave: [45:39] She's just an adorable white girl with a face, I think is the line. Tara: [45:41] Yeah. Yes, an adorable white girl with a face. I mean, true, she is. Yeah, this episode is masterfully done. I feel like the show is still under the radar more than it should be. I hope that it being added on Netflix earlier this year means more people are finding it. I know that happened with Detroiters, same thing. But AP Bio isn't Fantastic show. We talk about it as much as we are able to, and I'm glad we were able to talk about it again for this. Great presentation, Emily. Sarah. Sarah: [46:11] I love this episode. Also, I am not a big AP Bio watcher. I think when we It first came out, and we talked about it on the main show. I just found him difficult, the lead guy. And just couldn't just couldn't hang. Like, it wasn't bad. I just was like, this is not for me. So coming back to this show and particularly this episode, gratified to find that it had Found its footing and that it was very funny. I think that it has such a good ear for how deep they should have gone in the writer's room with the lore, but not Show all their work. So, like, the chalkboard is great. But, like, Katie on the gaty, like, you're done. Like, that's the joke. You don't have to go any further. I also liked that the guy reading the fairy tale at the beginning, and then, you know, I think it, I'm not sure if If it's the same dude, but like there are Santa-like touches everywhere. Tara: [47:09] Oh, yeah, no. Sarah: [47:10] He has this touching moment where he does get five more minutes with his late mother, but then you know, you're not given this, like It's not like sad cello, and then he's like, huh. And then you're shown that it's five minutes. Like their touch is very light. There is some. like all stuff in there but not to a like not to uh past the point of usefulness uh I think the bit about that flat screen T V confusion with the box is maybe not as funny as the show thinks, but to have like a little break In between, that isn't like Patton Oswalt and Paula Pell doing some like beyond the valley of the dolls shit that like I don't even know what's going on, but I could not stop laughing. Paula Pell is a genius. Like, you know, I nutted all night and that realization where they're like, oh, we can curse now. And then someone's like, holy shit-ass dick part, which is like. Of course, that's the string of nonsense cursing that comes out. But yeah, this is an extremely assured and funny bit, and the nods to like Other Christmas episodes, but also Christmas movies. Like some of the, like, you know, let her rate him just reminded me of like elf. And Will Farrell just like shrieking. But it's the commitment that I find particularly impressive that they just colored absolutely to the edge of the canvas. They didn't miss anything. And it is so funny. And comes from a place of deep love for not even Katie Holmes, but like medium-sized towns that are very interested in having traditions that are unique. And a love of Dawson's Creek and like WB cult and fan culture generally that even when it's Busting on it, it knows it and is fond of it like it's a family member. And yeah, a Garfield phone, I'm never going to be mad at that. Tara: [49:09] Two things before I pass it to Dave. One is like In terms of coloring to the edge of the paper, it reminds me of On the Run, the Jackie Daytona episode of What We Do in the Shadows, which is similarly like a complete one-off. That conceives a full world of the show as though it were going to be, you know, a backdoor pilot, and then it's just only for this episode. Sarah: [49:23] Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Tara: [49:30] It does not go anywhere else, as it were. Sarah: [49:32] Mm-hmm. Tara: [49:32] That's A. B. I agree with you about the flat screen TV storyline, but they get it back by having that be where Dave, the teacher everyone hates, the victim of the school. Says his donation for the auction is this drawing of Caddy Holmes. And they're like, We're gonna frame it, give it to the orphans. And then we see at the very end of the episode that's the last shot they did, and it's hanging in the orphanage. Dave: [49:57] But also that gives you the scene where Dale the janitor wants to get roasted and brings the used Tupperware with like Spaghetti sauce still in it, or something. Sarah: [49:57] Yeah. Tara: [50:03] Yes, uh-huh. Dave: [50:05] This is what I'm donating. Roast me over there. Yeah, give it to me. Tara: [50:08] Anyway, Dave. Dave: [50:09] Yeah, yeah, this is a really funny episode. Just to place it historically, this is the third season of four. Tara: [50:15] Yes. Dave: [50:16] And this is when they moved from NBC proper to Peacock. Tara: [50:20] Correct. Dave: [50:20] So that's where all the Can We Swear Now jokes are meta about the start of its like unhinged run. Sarah: [50:23] Mm-hmm. Dave: [50:29] When we get into season four, there's more what I describe fever dream sort of episodes to be had, and they're funny as well. But this is like the first one and probably the most structured and considered of those. Sarah mentioned the nutting joke. The joke there was Helen, the secretary to the principal, likes to knit at night, and the past tense of knit, of course, is not. So she nodded for hours. The homes on your head motion they all make, like a great mahawk to you, sir, is weird. Sarah: [50:58] Hmm. Dave: [50:59] It made me laugh the first time. I don't know if I noticed that the first time I watched this episode. Just like a lot of little moments. I have to say, this show turned me around on Patton Oswald. Like, he was just in too much a lot of the times, and the stuff he was doing was. Sarah: [51:10] Mhm. Yeah. Dave: [51:14] Nerd cred roles, where it's like, we've got this thing, it's okay, but how can we instantly buy street cred? Sarah: [51:16] Mm-hmm. Dave: [51:23] Oh, I know. It's Tuesday. We can bring in Patton Oswald. He'll do it. Sarah: [51:27] I mean, Strange New Worlds just did that, I feel like. And it was like, oh, don't start doing that again. Dave: [51:32] That's what I was about to say. Like, don't start the cycle again. He's doing, you're doing, you're doing good. Sarah: [51:35] Don't go back. Dave: [51:37] You stopped hosting that game show after one season. I think you saw the writing on the wall. Tara: [51:42] Yeah. Dave: [51:42] You know, just keep on going. Sarah: [51:42] Mm-hmm. Tara: [51:44] Pass it off to who else? Dave: [51:44] But Joe Mikhail is sitting there behind the tree, rubbing his hands. Tara: [51:45] Joel McHale. Dave: [51:49] Yeah. The whole thing where he is rehearsing scenarios and backstory to play Kevin Williamson in the town hall or whatever, the town, yeah, the town pageant, is so weird. Sarah: [52:01] The pageant Like, what? Dave: [52:03] Like, He has to tap into the character, and the way he does it is gets a pair of, you know, Tom Cruise and Days of Thunder glasses. And he is mugging so much in that scene. It generally just made me laugh his face. But he says, like, I don't know if I can do this unless, and he puts the glasses on, then says, California raisin. Tara: [52:24] California Raisin. Dave: [52:26] What? Sarah: [52:29] So weird. Dave: [52:31] Just so weird. Again, there's a whole backstory to that that we're not privy to, I assume. Doesn't really matter. And then there's that whole, as Sarah was saying, that weird fever dream-esque scene that plays out between Helen and his character. And then Lynette runs in to get something signed, and then like she's immediately game and starts doing some vaudevillian dancing act in front of her. And then The principal Durbin is yelling at Helen, Why can't you be more like this talent? It was just like so weird. So very weird. I was here for all of it. I really enjoyed Marissa, who is the student who didn't get the Katie Holmes part, really wanted it. This was like her seventh attempt or whatever to get it. And she gets so angry, she goes to rip off The tabletop to her student desk, and just like there for like 10 seconds, just doing it. Then it's just like, that's not going to happen. It's like, yeah, I know. It's just really great. Oh, yeah. The capper to the weird Lynette scene is Durbin drunk with power as his own character. Faster as she's dancing and doing the hand motions. It's just madness, and this episode is just really great. And the fact that they weave all this stupidity into a Christmas-coated episode, and it all works really well, hits all the high points of that sort of thing that you want. and just really delivers. And I also love r regular soup. So look forward to that on the soundboard. Sarah: [53:56] I mean, and this is two episodes after the other AP bio, or one of the other AP's bio that's in the canon, that, that, that. Tara: [54:04] That, that, that. Mm-hmm. Sarah: [54:06] Which is like it deranged in a similarly productive, brilliant way that you're just like, this was, I mean, these were in the same season. Never mind, two episodes apart. It's amazing. Dave: [54:18] Yeah, that's pretty good. Sarah: [54:18] Well done. I'm gonna have to watch this shit, apparently. Dave: [54:21] All right, let's put this to the official vote. Tara Ariana, what say you? Tara: [54:26] Of course. Dave: [54:27] Sarity but dang me too. Sarah: [54:29] Yes. Dave: [54:31] So AP Bio Season 3, Episode 8, Katie Holmes Day. You are hereby inducted into the extra hot great cannon of Holmes on your head. Sarah: [54:50] Candy provides. Dave: [54:53] And that is it for this episode of Extra Hot Great. We balanced an egg in the West Wing, ripped an apple in twain on Would I Lie to You, and celebrated Katie Holmes Day in AP Bio. Next up is definitely something and it's definitely about TV. Remember. Clip: [55:14] We're listening. Ah! Dave: [55:18] I am David T. Cole, and on behalf of Tara Ariana. Tara: [55:21] I would like to retain the rights to Balaclava Sports Hall. Dave: [55:24] And serve debunting. Sarah: [55:26] You're gonna hate it. Dave: [55:29] Thanks for listening. We'll see you next time, right here, on Extra Hot Grid. Clip: [55:43] And that noise signals time is up. It's the end of the show, and I can reveal that Dawson's Creek is cancelled. Bye bye for now.