Did Boston Blue Knock Our Sox Off?

Sarah 0:10 And I don't see it. Dave 0:17 This is the Extra Hock Ray Podcast, episode 585 for the week of October 20th, 2025. I am detective who never learns that suspects run away, David T. Cole. And I'm here with bean eater, Sarah D. Bunting. Sarah 0:36 I am the pianist plot bean eaters. Dave 0:40 Defense attorney in a police procedural, Tara Ariana. Tara 0:43 Oh, don't worry. I'm just sitting here. I'm not going to say anything. Dave 0:45 And expository dialogue expositing the same thing for the third time, Margaret H. Willison. Margaret 0:50 That's right. I'm white, she's black, and we're sisters. Do you get it this time, or do I need to draw you a diagram? Tara 0:59 Welcome to Extra Hot Great for another week. Joining us, she's a writer and a podcaster. You've heard with us before. It's Margaret H. Willis, and welcome back, Margaret. Sarah 1:09 Welcome back, friends. Tara 1:12 We're so thrilled to have Margaret here to talk about Boston Blue, in which Sean Reagan, Mika Amundsen, member of a New York criminal justice system dynasty he couldn't join because of LOL NYPD budget cuts, has been forced to move all the way to Boston so he can also become a cop. When he runs into a fire to save civilians and gets badly injured, his father, Danny, Donnie Wahlberg, makes the trip to see him taking long breaks from his ICU bedside to work the case Sean intervened on with Lena Silver, Sonequa Martin-Green. Like Danny, Lena is also part of a local criminal justice system dynasty. Her late stepfather was a judge. Her mother is district attorney. Her stepsister is superintendent of detectives. And her half-brother is a beat cop who is Sean's best friend. They even have regular family dinners to hash out the case of the week. Danny fits in so well. Is there even any reason for him to go back to Brooklyn? The show was co-created by Brandon Margolis and Brandon Sonnier, neither of whom worked on Blue Bloods, although they were co-showrunners on the Bad Boys spinoff show LA's Finest. We watched one. Only one episode of Boston Blue has aired so far on CBS. We got access to two, but we'll try not to spoil events. From episodes that have not aired yet. Let's do the Chen check-in. Margaret, should our listeners watch Boston Blue? Margaret 2:36 I think if you're inclined to watch Boston Blue, you know who you are and you know what it is. Tara 2:42 Yep. Margaret 2:43 And it is mostly what it seems like. If you are like, hey, I've heard some things about these blues, but I don't really do police procedurals. Maybe I'll give it a try. Don't. Tara 2:53 Mm-hmm. Great. Margaret 2:55 Don't. Don't do that. Don't do that to yourself. Dave 2:57 Yeah. Tara 2:58 Sarah? Sarah 2:59 No. Like, even if you were a Blue Bloods guy. Margaret 3:02 No. Okay. Tara 3:04 No. Dave? Dave 3:05 I mean, I guess I should just defer to Sarah on this one, but I thought the answer was going to be, you had 17 years to test out the waters with Blue Bloods. So if you're in with that, I guess you'd probably be in for this because it seems like it's probably the exact same show down to, like, the family where everybody has to be a cop, you know? Oh, here comes Fido. You know, he's on the bomb squad everybody's a cop here so uh that i guess would be my answer although and no i'm gonna have to say if blue blood's expert slash the world's number one blue blood's fan sarah d bunting can't muster the energy for this i may have to reconsider yeah. Tara 3:43 If i wanted to watch a cop show set in toronto i would just watch law and order toronto colon criminal intent because this pilot sure was shot in Toronto, at least parts of it were. Margaret 3:53 Thank you for answering that question for me, because it certainly wasn't shot in Boston. Tara 3:58 No, no, no. It wasn't. Normally, we go to the guests first, but since Sarah is, as we've said, the Blue Bloods watcher on the panel, Sarah, how well or poorly does Boston Blue broaden the world of Blue Bloods? Sounds like poorly, but tell us precisely why. Sarah 4:12 If you watched Blue Bloods or found it soothing to just like have on that every episode was kind of the same. First of all, you can still do that. It was on for 180 seasons. I'm not sure why they bothered canceling it if Boston Blue was the result. But it is what it is. It's a very standard pro cop, few bad apples, procedural fine. Tara 4:39 Mm-hmm. Sarah 4:39 And there is obviously a place for that in American cultural life and people who find the rhythms of that soothing. But there was absolutely no need to cancel the original, give Donnie Wahlberg a terrible dye job and move everything to Bostronto. And then on top of that, they're acting like Boston is not Boston, but Bahrain. terrain. There were conversations between two cops and two cop families talking about like, oh, we have that in the Catholic church at home. Oh, really? You're telling this to a Bostonian? They have a couple Catholics there. I mean, they're not good at diversing in Boston, I wouldn't say, especially that they're known for that, but they have all these things there that this whole cross-cultural fish out of water. How far out of water is a New York cop fish in the Charles River? Tara 5:39 Not very. Sarah 5:41 Also, everyone knows where fucking Donnie Wahlberg is from. Are you fucking kidding me? It's doing all the same things structurally and rhythmically as Blue Bloods, but because that is in reruns on at least three channels right this second. And it's not doing some of the things as well. There's some really good actors in here. For what? I don't understand why this exists. And the exposition really was so tiring. I've seen a blended family before. The bunch of Brady. Hello. Tara 6:16 Yeah. Margaret 6:17 Yeah, I did not realize that the show was sort of grew out of the corpse of Boston Blue. I assumed, you know, that they were both continuing on adjacent to one another. And in that sense, I feel like McDonald's like Caribbean spice version. You know, I could see that being something some folks might want to tune in for, which for context for folks, instead of it just being like a standard Irish Catholic cop family, this is a blended Jewish black family where the grandfather is also the head preacher at like Boston's oldest black Baptist church where the gospel choir sings and kente cloth robes. Sarah 7:00 Yeah, which Donnie Wahlberg also acts like they don't have in New York City, in fucking Brooklyn, of all places. Like, I just can't. Only on TV. Margaret 7:12 I was like, well, this feels like a bold choice because as a Bostonian going into watching one of these shows, I'm always like, well, is this going to be about Boston that I live in? Right. Or is this going to be about like someone's fantasy of Boston from between 1975 and 1995 with like Whitey Bulger and like everybody in Southie is still poor and et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And what I found is that this is no place. It's not the new Boston I live in now. It's not the fantasy Boston people like to make movies like the town about. It's just a random placeholder that occasionally isn't New York, but again, never looks much like Boston. I especially like in the second episode, there's a murder at Fenway Park and there are some scenes that are shot in Fenway Park. And then suddenly they're on a street outside Fenway Park. And I'm like, that's just not, that's nowhere. That's not what anything outside Fenway Park looks like. Dave 8:04 Yeah, this show has all the fidelity of like when Top Chef goes somewhere. You know, and it's just like it's exactly the same show in a studio, except we got a lobster roll the first episode, you know, like it's like that level of detail. Margaret 8:16 I thought I was originally was going to give him points for like, oh, well, I guess we've said it in a diverse place. But I did feel like are the people who wanted to watch something called Blue Bloods, like, do they want their propaganda with like Seder dinners on Friday night? Tara 8:30 Uh-huh. Margaret 8:31 Or do they want their propaganda with, you know, corned beef on Sunday, just like they've always had it? I suspect probably the latter. Tara 8:39 Mm-hmm. Sarah 8:40 Yeah. Margaret 8:41 But, you know, CBS, I think, does know one or two things more than I do about what shows are going to have longevity. Tara 8:48 Yeah. Well, we'll see, I guess. I found it interesting that on the copaganda tip, like the law enforcement shows that we've recently discussed on the podcast, which include Task, High Potential, Slow Horses and The New Force, all of those on our bonus episodes on Fridays and Extra, Extra Hot Great. They all start from a seeming assumption that the audience is suspicious about cops and needs to know that the show's creators are as well. But like this really felt like a throwback to an era in which none of that was happening. Like one of the main plot points and the reason for the crime in the first episode is racist facial recognition software. And we're told it is bad and we're not going to use it unless you really need to. And also we got a black software engineer to help us fix it. So don't even worry about it. Margaret 9:33 Yeah. Dave 9:34 Yeah. Margaret 9:35 In this, it seems like the thing it wants to reassure you about is, oh, don't worry. Even though these main characters are black, they aren't going to be woke about policing. Tara 9:42 Right. Right. Margaret 9:43 They still want to use the facial recognition software. It's just their loony, their loony mom, who's the DA, who's trying to make a stunt here. Also, in that particular one, it's like they have a very clear image of the suspect's face. Tara 9:57 Yeah. Margaret 9:58 It's like you couldn't just like hold up. the picture and look at the suspect and be like, well, that looks like that's probably the suspect. You have to wait for the panes of the face to be scanned by the facial recognition software and the little loading bar to come up and be like 72% match. Sarah 10:12 All the polygons that make it sciencey. It's like we have facial recognition software. It's called Vision. Someone put on some spectacles and look at the suspect. Tara 10:25 Yeah. But also when they're like, well, that's a match. 72% I'm like I don't think that's so much of a match personally and it turns out not to be but. Margaret 10:35 Like that's. Sarah 10:35 A second act red herring is what that is. Margaret 10:37 Sure is and we all knew it would be based on the timing yeah. Sarah 10:41 We've watched TV before. Margaret 10:42 Yeah especially police procedurals. Tara 10:45 Yeah we already talked about Donnie Wahlberg's dye job. Margaret 10:48 But I kept looking at him and being like is he a Wahlberg I was like cause he looks a little bit like if you poured Ike Barinholtz into a glass you just drunk Mark Wahlberg out of. He's probably a Wahlberg. He can't look this much like a Wahlberg and not be a Wahlberg. But for the benefit of all involved, I didn't Google and I'm pleased to hear I was correct. Tara 11:14 I mean, the Wahlbergs are all kind of melting at this point, you know. They're all in their 50s, it's fine. But I did think it was funny that his reveal, his first scene in character is like shirtless near bed. It's like, okay. Yeah, you've been to the gym. Great. Glad you feel strongly about making sure we all know. But also getting caught in the maelstrom is Sonequa Martin-Green, who has been the best thing about almost everything I've ever seen her in, including this. But the best I can say, even with that standard is I hope she's getting paid a lot because she's so much better than she needs to be here. Sarah 11:49 Mm hmm. Margaret 11:50 And it's just, it's so hard to be a Black woman that cool and consent to having Donnie Wahlberg repeatedly refer to you as Bean Town. Tara 12:00 Yeah. Margaret 12:01 Which I gotta say, like, it's really, like, it's not a thing. It's not a thing anyone says. Tara 12:07 No. Sarah 12:08 I mean, it is. It's a thing an 83-year-old person to whom I am related says. Margaret 12:15 Might say. Right, might say. Sarah 12:16 Yeah, might say. He also says Bo Socks and Shy Socks. Margaret 12:21 He's 83. Sarah 12:22 Don't be 83. Dave 12:23 There's like a gumshoe shorthand, though, or a cool guy loner thing where he calls you by the city you live, like Sawyer and Lost, or probably somebody from The Walking Dead did it, too. Tara 12:34 That kind of guy. Dave 12:35 How you doing there, Toronto? Yeah. Margaret 12:38 I did watch this and wonder, like, I'm against using AI to make shows. I'm against it. I don't know that it couldn't have done a better job. Tara 12:47 Or the same. Margaret 12:49 Yeah, the same. Absolutely the same. Like, no question about that. When you're talking about somebody whose house is in Hyde Park and you're like, yeah, and he took the red line there, like maybe at least just like pick a neighborhood of Boston that is connected to the subway, any subway, right? Like any subway at all. But instead they picked one that's only on a commuter train. And obviously, needless to say, nowhere near the red line. Whereas the primarily black neighborhood in Boston of Dorchester is huge and contains almost all of the red line. Just seems like. That's actually a detail AI might have gotten right. AI probably, however, would have sent a perp running through a historic cemetery that is famously surrounded on all sides by buildings and does not have any abutting alleys, such as the one you eventually see him fleeing into. That feels like an AI problem. But other things, I don't want a Boston police, the Boston police show. Dave 13:46 But it is kind of weird when you have a show that has location first in the title and you just know there's nobody from that city in the writer's room or production side of things. Just like like one person, just one person. Margaret 14:00 One Google. Dave 14:01 You can say something about the red line not going where you think it goes. Tara 14:04 Yeah. By one map. Sarah 14:05 I'm glad that I'm not going to be the only like Massachusetts cop on our family of podcasts because I make these complaints about Cape stuff and Capeside on the Dawson's Creek podcast all the time. And it's like, look, it doesn't have to be like an exact like here's the Orleans traffic circuit. Who cares? But at least have some concept of how anything works in a state that's not North Carolina. I don't know. Margaret 14:31 If you want to be from a place be from a place yeah yeah right. Tara 14:36 Right. Margaret 14:37 Like The Good Wife, you can tell. I'm going to talk about it later on. So but I'll bring it in now. It is not shot in Chicago and you can regularly see you're like, well, this is certainly Central Park. I'm not even from New York and I know this is Central Park. But it does really capture like you get a feeling of Chicago politics. You get a feeling of like specifically the Democratic Party. You feel like you are interacting with people who live in that city, who talk about that city, who think about that city. It has verisimilitude. this has no very like this has as much verisimilitude as like that one establishing shot in legally blonde where you like see her driving over a bridge and then you're like it's harvard and you're like we know it's not yeah. Dave 15:18 This is like ordering stuff from a fancy restaurant a door dash you're just like you. Margaret 15:22 Get up there and it's like all. Dave 15:23 Right i mean i'll take a word for it. Tara 15:24 Yeah so it sounds like the blue part is boring and the boston part is inauthentic so boston. Margaret 15:29 Blue No thank you. Yeah. No thank you. Sarah 15:32 More like Boston Boo. Margaret 15:33 Boston Boo. Dave 15:43 All right. Oh, wait, Margaret, how many times a day do you say wicked as a Bostonian? I forgot to ask you that. Seven, eight? Margaret 15:50 Wicked few times. Dave 15:51 Okay. And it's time for Around the Dial. First off, as always, Tara. Tara, what have you been watching recently? Tara 15:56 I watched Downey wrote that on Peacock. We did not talk about him last week when we covered the chair company, but one of the secondary office characters on that show, Douglas, who lets Ron know he was expecting to get the project lead job and who is comforting himself now by blowing tiny bubbles. his co-workers a lot is played by Jim Downey. Jim Downey is someone who is very important to this podcast because of one clip you have heard us play dozens of times. Margaret 16:22 What you just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever. Dave 16:36 Could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now. Tara 16:41 Dumber for. Margaret 16:42 Having I award you no points. Tara 16:46 And may God have mercy on your soul. So, you also saw him as an important member of the Christmas Adventurers Club in One Battle After Another. He was also previously in Paul Thomas Anderson's There Will Be Blood. He is, however, mostly a comedy writer, which is why he is the subject of a new documentary on Peacock, Downey Wrote That, which was produced by Lorne Michaels, who employed Downey on Saturday Night Live, starting basically when Downey was straight out of college in the second season and then on and off for decades afterwards, spanning two centuries. This was fun for me because as much as I shit on SNL, because it deserves it, I was a super fan at one time, including the period when Jim Downey worked on it. So seeing clips of the various sketches that he wrote was enough for me to like fill in the whole thing of all of them in my head. But that is probably also why it would be frustrating for anyone who is not off book on the show from the 80s and 90s and early aughts because the sketches that get highlighted aren't ever shown in full. I felt that way about the segment that covered Downey's time when he was the head writer on Late Night with David Letterman, which, believe it or not, was when I was too young to be watching it. And that just made me wish I could find a playlist of his stuff on Letterman, which they may have made by now. They're usually right on top of it on the Letterman YouTube channel, like curating stuff that's relevant to current events in the cultural news. Tara 18:02 Also frustrating, the filmmaker whose name is Brent Hodge. He also directed the Adam Pally special on HBO this week. He features a clip of Bob Odenkirk talking about how restrictive Odenkirk found the writing process on SNL when he was on staff. He describes that at length in his recent memoir. And Odenkirk is shown saying he wishes he knew what Downey thought about that. And then we don't hear what Downey thought about it. Like if you're not going to ask him or if he's not going to answer, just don't include that clip. But speaking of clips, I do have a couple that illustrate what makes the movie worth watching if you are an SNL old head. And before I play this clip, just know It is accompanied by old, real home video shot in the writer's room while people are playing the game they're about to describe, clip one. We were sent these soft vinyl, like a baseball. We're sitting there. Margaret 19:13 Old goo. You throw the darts in a pattern to deflect the goo, and you create either a shunt or a fence. There were different terms. Tara 19:23 For the different types of barriers. I've never seen a one dart stop. Margaret 19:29 It's like one in the morning, and everyone's having a great time, and it's just, they pan around the room, and I'm just like this. I'm just looking at my script and just... The equivalent of the Royal Flush was to create, get trapped. Great fucking try. But you could also slow the goo down and give another player time to cradle it. You realize it's not a real sport. Well, tell that to the American Goo Federation. Tara 20:06 This is exactly what I'm here for in a documentary like this is like, what is the stupidest thing you did in your time on the show? And it's that and like seeing the video and how serious they all are, like truly about Google is so funny. And there's also this. This is from when Norm MacDonald took over Weekend Update. Downey had been fired, and Norm basically, like, had him rehired to write Update with him. He was the head writer of Update during that time, which was also relevant to a very newsy time in the mid-90s. Here's a montage of some of the jokes they did then, clip two. Was O.J. Simpson high on speed the night of the murders? Absolutely. Margaret 20:49 And a simple test of any of O.J.'s blood found at the crime scene will prove it. Hey, Norm, what's up? It's O.J. Oh, O.J. O.J. Simpson's new fitness video was released this week. Oh, no, O.J. has struck again. How about that? It was revealed this week that defense lawyer Johnny Cochran once abused his first wife. his defense, Cochran said, hey, at least I didn't kill her like some people I know. Tara 21:18 So, there's a lot about that. Anyway, I'm not sorry I watched it, But truly, you have to be right in the zone of liking Downey's stuff. And it actually is astounding how many of the sketches you remember that he wrote. And just a sidebar about the Adam Pally special, Sarah, which I also watched. It's not exactly just him doing dad rock, but it's not really a comedy special either. So unless you really love him, no matter what he's doing, don't watch it. It is extremely self-indulgent. That said, David Krummel does appear in it, apparently singing, but not on any songs that you hear. So that's also frustrating. okay for my plug uh the again with this patreon campaign continues we have a lot of great stuff happening in october not only the various horror movies that we're talking about that are related to dawson's creek but also sarah has an interview with rob nagel who is the star on the show for four episodes that's coming this week and then lots more holiday programming for thanksgiving and Christmas yet to come. So again, with this podcast.com slash campaign to get in that Patreon and hear lots of good stuff. Dave 22:24 All right, Margaret, what do you got for us? Margaret 22:26 So I have been watching a lot of television with my boyfriend and it is a real treat because up until now, he has not really consumed much of what he calls high quality scripted programming. So he's kind of a blank slate for me. I need to be I need to pay some attention to what he won't sleep through and what doesn't trigger trauma from his advertising past hmm, And what we found that was incredibly successful is all seven seasons of The Good Wife. And also at least there are five or six seasons of The Good Fight. It's hard to remember because some of them are so short. Tara 23:05 Yeah. Margaret 23:05 And I got to say, y'all, those they hold up great. Those are those are still a real banger thing to watch. You're going to be triggered a lot by The Good Fight because it goes there. Any place you might go from Trump's election to today, it goes there and it goes hard. The entire final season is set in a city that is like besieged by constant riots. So they're just coming in out of tear gas streets all the time. And you're like, wow, this is like I'm looking in a mirror. So just if you've been wondering, where could I find 12 seasons of television I haven't already seen that I would enjoy? That pairing, I highly recommend. Or if you made it partway through one of them and then stopped, go back. Margaret 23:52 Be a completist. It's worth it. It's worth your time. There's that. And then I'm going to do something a little bit more recent. I added this to the doc while we were recording. And specifically, I've been watching a little bit of the newest season of Love is Blind. Tara 24:05 I've heard it's great. Margaret 24:06 In Denver, I'm like four episodes in. And it is certainly better than the previous season of Love is Blind UK, where everybody was just like too reasonable. I was like, well, there's nothing to watch here. You're all reasonably deciding not to get married to somebody you've known for a month. Tara 24:25 No, that's not what I'm here for. I'm here for you to be crazy. Sarah 24:28 No. Give me that altitude sickness decision making. Yeah. Margaret 24:32 There's a lot of altitude sickness decision making in Lois Blind Ender, but particularly the quality that leapt out at me so much that I actually went on Blue Sky and did a blue ski. Dave 24:42 It's quite a mess, as I understand. Margaret 24:44 Yeah. It's like every single person in the cast has a lift driver energy. Tara 24:49 Right? Margaret 24:50 Where you get in and you immediately get back out, right? They seem warm, gregarious, like they're not immediately making decisions you question. But then like, you're like, are they high? Like they're driving fine. I, but I don't feel safe anymore. I no longer feel safe. I no longer feel confident in the decisions that they're making. They're talking to you so much more than you want them to. And, and all of a sudden they're like, they're like talking about like, what would you do? You know, if you're, if your kid was LBGTQ, do you think it's a fad? And you're like, oh, I don't, I don't want to have this conversation with people I know and love, let alone with you, a Lyft driver. And every conversation in the pods feels like that to me. Just feels like two Lyft drivers talking to each other through a wall. Sarah 25:36 They're going to put that on the poster. Margaret 25:39 Do I think anything resulting from this is going to be a successful marriage? No. But with Lyft drivers, you can say. Do I think it is going to be a very successful and gripping season of Love is Blind? Yes. And I'm thrilled. And I only hope that Love is Blind Boston, which I believe is the next season, can bring something this chaotic to the table. Dave 26:00 I think you got the next format, though. It is a Lyft car with a solid divider. Margaret 26:05 In the middle? Like a Lyft share? A ride share? Dave 26:08 Yeah. In the middle? It's like a portable pod? Margaret 26:11 Ride share. That's what you could call it. Ride share. Tara 26:14 Yeah. Oh, this week or next week sees the premiere of the latest season of Married at First Sight, which is moving to Peacock as of this season, season 19, and is taking place in Austin. I've already lived through the Austin season of Love is Blind. So looking forward to which parts of the city they befoul. Can't wait. Margaret 26:37 And if you enjoyed hearing any of this from me, you can find more of my social media content chiefly at Instagram dot com slash Mrs. Friday next. But every once in a while, I do have a television-specific opinion I need to air, and then I do it at bluesky.com slash Mrs. Friday Next. I don't know how you construct a bluesky address. Dave 27:00 People will figure it out. You just search for it. You'll get your name. Margaret 27:03 You can find my blueskits there. Dave 27:08 All right, Sarah D. Bunting, what do you got? Sarah 27:09 I am talking about Task. Dave 27:12 Task! Sarah 27:16 Force. Anyway, we've talked about Task on Extra, Extra Hot Grape back in September. I did watch to the end. I did have a few notes. Overall, it's very good. I liked it a great deal. It's not as good as Mayor of Easttown. Of course, same creator, Brad Inglesby. Maybe it's because Mayor of Easttown brought Inglesby and his team the ability to deflect notes about things like a too meditative pace or a somewhat self-indulgent approach to episode construction. I would have preferred a slightly tighter narrative, little less time spent on shots of late summer foliage, little less obvious Emmy baiting with certain scenes and monologues. Some of the backstory for Tom and his family was too baroque. Some of the actors didn't get enough to do for my taste, by which I mean, Martha Plimpton, please spin her character off. Somehow, she is a badass delight. I love her. But these are all very good actors. Some of them I had never seen in anything before. Tom Pelfrey is Robbie. Amelia Jones is Maeve. Very, very good. Excited to spend more time with them on future things. There were a couple that got to be leads functionally. Jamie McShane, for instance. It was a little sort of trying to invest in a biker uncle. Sarah 28:36 It's not necessarily a lift that everyone is going to want to undertake. but he is really good. And there were some ideas there about finding family, whether it's the communities that you create, or refinding your family of origin and sort of actively choosing them every day, the management of grief, all of that I thought was handled bittersweetly and well. And I won't lie, I find that accent nostalgic and wonderful. And most of the people in my family of origin who could manage to get 28 vowels into the word Straussburg are gone now, and this is kind of a, like, opens a window to when they were still around. That won't be true for everyone, and this can be really dark, but it ended on a sort of... up note exactly, but sort of trending upwards, and I appreciated that it was a well-told story, didn't drag on for 10 episodes, and apparently there are discussions about a season two? Task even forcier? I think that would be a mistake, but no one listens to me, and that's probably wise. Speaking of not listening to me, it's not always something that you should avoid doing, I review true crime at bestevidence.fyi. I do that with my esteemed colleague, Eve Beatty, and we have a bunch of stuff up this week, including upcoming October true crime documentaries. Sarah 30:02 This copaganda oral history book that I was reading on the subway that literally cleared out a whole three top on the R train. So that one simple trick, if you want to see it on the subway, read a, you know, really bright red, aggressively fonted book about cops and don't put a post-it on it that says it's for work, which I also consider doing. Anyway, all that and six and a half years more of our true crime reviews is at bestevidence.fyi. Dave 30:33 All right, here's what's coming up on our shows in the coming week. This Friday on Extra Extra Hot Great, it is the four sending pool, and it's going to be a spoopy four sending. Did I say that right? Tara 30:44 Spoopy? Yep. Dave 30:46 Halloween Wars is the show we'll be watching and discussing. That is available to all club members. Go to extrahotgreat.com slash club. If you're not a member, you can join on Patreon, or you can join directly on Apple Podcasts. And then come back here, EHG Prime. One week from today, we'll be talking about it, colon, welcome to Derry with horror expert, Josh Gondolman. Tara 31:12 He will talk about it, but he is doing this under duress. He was like, I don't know if this is going to be too scary. Dave 31:18 He's like, I don't want to watch this. Margaret 31:19 Thank you so much. Dave 31:20 It's too scary. And Tara's like, tough beans. You have to come on the show. Tara 31:24 I said, just one. And he said, I can handle one. And we'll find out if he can next week. Dave 31:29 And then Tara said, Tough Beans Town. And he said, no, no, no, no, no. I'll do it. I don't want to do Boston Blue. Tara 31:35 He is, in fact, from Boston as well. Margaret 31:38 If you'd given me a choice between the two, I think I probably still would have chosen Boston Blue for the same reason Josh did not want to do it colon welcome to dairy. So I appreciate you deciding to give the other nicest person from Boston that assignment. Tara 31:52 You're so welcome. Dave 32:00 It is time for the Extra Hot Great Canon presenting this week. It's Never Not Mike. Hello, Extra Hot Great. This is Never Not Mike. I am a new listener and an even newer member. Margaret 32:25 Challenge, I mean, I can literally say my pitch is that it's the suitcase episode of Mad Men, and it should get in. But I will accept the challenge in the spirit of the show and try to show it the respect it deserves. Tara 36:23 Half-drunkenly shouted paraphrase from a red-faced Don Draper. That's what the canon's for! Thank you, Never Not Mike. Margaret, please start us off. What did you think of the episode and of Never Not Mike's argument? Margaret 36:38 I think Never Not Mike's argument is perfect, save for one thing. I would have loved it if he could have called it a bottle episode, specifically because I would have felt the rage, Catherine. Dave 36:50 Yeah, I was thinking. Sarah 36:52 Let's do. Margaret 36:52 Her blood would have spiked somewhere. To troll her. Just to troll her. Tara 36:55 Yes. Margaret 36:56 For her 40th birthday surprise party, we got pencils made that said, this is a bottle episode. Sarah 37:03 And one of them is buried in your heart right now. Margaret 37:06 Yeah, exactly. Exactly. But more seriously, on the actual merits of the case, I felt silly picking this from the list of possible ones because it just feels like like like it's been like I'm just peeling tape off of the list where like it's already been ingrained this whole time because this is truly it's one of the best episodes of Mad Men of all time. But I have not revisited Mad Men pretty much since it went off the air. And God, was it a welcome, was it a welcome thing to step back into from Mrs. Blankenship? The hellcat, truly master of perversion. Tara 37:43 Queen of perversions, yeah. Margaret 37:45 Queen of perversions. Just to have her in the first half, and I had forgotten that that reveal was contained in the second. So it hit with all the same impact it hit the first time. Just the throwaway bits that are like that to the actual like meat of the two-hander that Peggy and Don get to do with one another here. It shows so, so effectively why that TV show is as beloved as it is, is as respected as it is. And I really appreciate that. In the central fight that produces the iconic line, that's what the money is for, neither of them is 100% right and neither of them is 100% wrong. Don does need to treat Peggy better, but he is right that, like, that ad was his idea, right? And that it is appropriate for him to get the credit for it. So I just, I loved it. I don't have a lot more to say in addition to Never Not Mike's excellent, although insufficiently trolly case. Tara 38:43 I'll go next. Agree with Mike straight down the line, starting with, I really don't have to do much. You don't, but you did a lot. And I respect the argument that you made. This was spectacularly argued. It was tight. Very tight. Clip-free. What I had forgotten, because like Margaret, I haven't revisited the show since it was on either. I had forgotten how much episode there is after the fight. Like, that's sort of, that's not even really the climax of the episode. It's like in the first half, practically, there is so much to like Mike is right it is unexpectedly funny the stuff that we talked about too but like Randy Heller fucking Daniel's mother from the Karate Kid as Miss Blankenship just casually telling Don when he comes back someone called while you were in the toilet she's just so wrong for the environment there's. Sarah 39:32 A time difference you know. Tara 39:33 So right though, every scene with Don and Peggy is perfect. The way they set up, you know, their season one conflict as well, or, you know, the long ago shame of Peggy's secret pregnancy, which it seems like it is like what Don told her right after she delivered, which is it will shock, it will surprise you. It will amaze you how much this never happened or whatever the line is, something to that effect. And it seems to be true because she runs into Trudy in the bathroom and now Trudy is pregnant with a baby she is keeping from the same man. And it's like, there's no sort of twinge from Peggy. It's just like, here's my colleague's wife. I'll be nice. There's a reason not to. And like, there's, I won't say there's something to be said for compartmentalization. It doesn't seem to be doing Don well in this episode, really. But, you know, he does pull it together at the end. He doesn't look like he ever puked on his shirt and continued in the office without going home. Tara 40:31 So he's figured out some things and not others but my favorite part of it is when he presents the idea to peggy at the end and she starts critiquing it the way he was critiquing hers and it's like this is the crux of what they've arrived at now like never not mike said he thinks of her as a peer but he's he's as hurt when he thinks she is insufficiently appreciating him as much as she does when it's the other way around and i enjoyed that moment where she's just finally like, yep, it's great. We can pick on it later. Because they have reached a new understanding in their relationship. I'm amazed also to hear that it's the exact midpoint of the series because I won't say it's all downhill from here, but they never reach these heights again. This is a wonderful episode. Margaret 41:15 You know, it's a real shame they couldn't bottle this magic. Dave 41:19 Going hard. Tara 41:20 That was Margaret, not us, Catherine. Okay, so Sarah. Sarah 41:24 And that was the last time we had Catherine on us. this was delightful i was really struck by how many like legendary lines are or scenes are in this that i forgot like you remember that's what the money is for but i had forgotten that this was also like he's just sort of like there on the couch with chunder on his shirt and she's like how long are you gonna go on like this i forgot the ali liston fight was involved and for this show, I think if this had been in season six. Sarah 41:57 That parallel would have been much more heavy-handed than it is here where you're talking about two heavyweights. It's two different styles of fighting. That is referred to in passing and not underlined too much. What they bring into that that's-what-the-money-is-for fight is also you get context from the fight about the years that have led to this fight. But it's not too much exposition. Like, you know, as you know, when you stole this idea and then like she just refers to it and then keeps going, it is fairly passive aggressive on her side and dismissive on his, which is in character. And there are these two heavyweights like in their field, but also as actors kind of, you know, doing their thing in the ring. And then there's Roger Sterling fucking doing bits in a payphone booth about how boring it is to spend time with people in recovery. And he's like, and then they start crying. And then you can hear ducks ice clinking. Sarah 43:00 And the ways that alcohol is and is not helping people manage their suitcases is woven through the whole thing. I thought the ghost of Anna was for this kind of thing. It's always a risk to do that. I thought it was well done. It really is just so well written and performed. And there's all these moments from Ida Blankenship not knowing which direction the time difference goes. Sarah 43:29 Stan being like, have you been farting in here? Actually, she's just been crying and sulking. But she's the one woman who can't let anything show. So we just talked about a Jack and Bobby episode. Remember that thing? And there was Jack in the, you know, being a just like white, you know, Nepo fail son asshole in this scene, but they don't really dwell on it because that's kind of the entire show. But I was impressed with this presentation. Like, thank you for not clipping certain bathroom scene because, wow, it just really seems like prestige shows love to make me suffer with the fucking barfing. Margaret 44:08 Yeah. Sarah 44:09 But it was worth it. And, you know, as a man once said, that is what the money is for. So thank you so much. I'm glad we're finally, like, actually processing the paperwork on this one. Tara 44:20 Yeah. When they cut to Peggy's official boyfriend, because she's also sort of having an affair with Duck on the side. But when we cut to Mark at the restaurant, it's just like him. The way he is not it, like, just does not fit in this world. It's not the guy for her. It's clearly not going to last past this episode. It's like, oh, buddy, you just have no idea. Anyway, that's all I wanted to say. Dave. Dave 44:42 When the junior ad team goes to Don to pitch their first Samsonite idea, it's this whole football thing with Joe Namath as the spokesperson, sort of. And Don just ends with, endorsements are lazy, which he's absolutely right. That is 100%. Every time you get an endorsement, it's because somebody gave up along the line. Other things of note, Duck's. horrible feet the soles of his feet are disgusting so. Margaret 45:10 Leathery are haunting i. Dave 45:12 Don't know what's worse ducks or jackson lamb from slow horses it's a real it's a real tight competition there one of the just throwaway lines or moments i really enjoy is when the junior ad team is in their cubicle area and they're talking about ideas or not talking about ideas and. Dave 45:32 One of them just says to Danny, like, I hate your neck. It's the kind of neck that I wish I had a James Bond blow dart to stick in it. All right. Somebody telling Peggy that 26 is still dot, dot, dot, very young. One thing, though, I wasn't sure of one piece of diet like I was wondering about when Peggy finally tells Don that it's her birthday. Don just like takes a beat and says, oh, now I'm supposed to feel like crap. Would that have been, now I feel like crap? Would that have been in the language back then? Tara 46:10 I mean, I don't know. I wasn't there. But I don't think that, it didn't hit my ear wrong, personally. Sarah 46:14 No, yeah, mine either. Dave 46:15 All right. Okay. But yes, it's nice to finally now be able to say, yes, it's in the canon. It wasn't just a mass delusion we all had that it was definitely in there and we forgot to put it in the list. Tara 46:27 Well, now wait, we haven't voted yet. Dave 46:29 Okay, well, that's true. So let's do that right now. Margaret, the suitcase, canon-worthy or not? Margaret 46:34 Yay. Canon-worthy. Dave 46:36 Tara. Tara 46:36 Yay. Dave 46:37 Sarah. Sarah 46:38 Like a roach in the Parthenon. Yes, sir. Dave 46:40 All right, me too. So. Mad Men, season four, episode seven, The Suitcase. You are hereby inducted into the Extra Hot Great Cannons. Dave 47:01 Americans love a winner. Yep. And will not tolerate a loser. Nope. It is time to discover the winner and a loser of the week. Sarah has this week's winner. Sarah 47:11 Yeah, trying to keep it Boston themed. Speaking of Hyannisport bean eaters, Michael Fassbender, who is not one, will be playing Joseph Kennedy Sr. in Netflix's series on the Kennedy dynasty, which like I first read that and was like, I don't. Oh, you know what? Totally. Like you get those little slightly too close together, perfectly round glasses from the 20s. It's on. Can't wait. Dave 47:34 And who is the loser, Tara? Tara 47:36 Loser is Rockman Dunbar, formerly of 911. He got fired from 911 because he refused to get the COVID vaccine in 2021, which was the mandate at the time. Later, I believe ran for either he or his wife ran for SAG president on the anti-vaccine like platform, basically. So he claimed a religious exemption from getting it because it was the vaccine is not of God and took it all the way to federal court where Disney's lawyer was like, basically this you and listed the 37 other medications he is on. And anyway, he lost. His claim was rejected. Yes, he sued the company in 2022, alleging that the production failed to accommodate his belief in the tenets of the Congregation of Universal Wisdom. and an eight member federal jury found unanimously that that was bullshit actually and in court he yelled oh my god oh my god oh my god according to Variety and not only lost but lost spectacularly and made a scene so sucks to be him that's. Dave 48:44 Bullshit that's what he said. Tara 48:46 He did hey girl. Dave 48:47 Speaking about that was bullshit oh my god oh my god oh my god do you know what time it is gotta be game time, Welcome back, everybody, to Game Time. This is the ninth of the season. Our scores are Tara with four and a half points. If Tara can get half a point today, she will win the season. Sarah has one and a half points. Value guests have two whole points. Today, we are playing Get Margaret There, in which you, the non-Margaret people, must get Margaret there. It's basically password with Margaret as the guesser. Tara and Sarah will take turns giving Margaret one-word clues to one-word TV-related answers. To remind you of the rules, clues cannot rhyme with the password, cannot be a homonym or a proper noun, and you cannot use gestures. Tara 49:44 Got it. Dave 49:44 If Margaret answers after your clue, Tara and Sarah, you get a point. If you can't help Margaret and we reach 10 collective hints, no points are awarded and a non-point punishment will be given to both players. Sarah 49:58 Jeez. Margaret 49:59 But none for me? Dave 50:00 No, no. I would never, Margaret. Unless you want to. Margaret 50:04 No, thank you. Dave 50:05 Tell you what. I'll let you know what the punishment is. You can buy in or not. Tara 50:09 Deal. Dave 50:10 Whoever has the most points at the end of the game wins. If Margaret gets half of the questions correct, she also wins. So we could have two winners today. Let's throw it in the picky to see who's going first. We will start with Tara. All right. So that just means who starts the clues for each one. We got 10 clues, assuming it's not going to take forever to do. No steel mills, no equalizer challenge zones. Are we ready to play Get Margaret There? Tara 50:37 Yes. Margaret 50:38 Let's get me there. Dave 50:40 This is Dave with a quick post-production note. If you'd rather know the answers before people start doing the clues and the guessing, there is an answer guide in the show notes. All right, Tara and Sarah have been given the one-word answer. They must provide one-word clues that do not go against all the rules that I have mentioned. Tara, what is your first clue? Tara 51:04 Internet. Dave 51:06 All right, Margaret, one answer per clue, please. Margaret 51:10 Email. Dave 51:12 Sarah. Sarah 51:14 Watching. Margaret 51:16 Netflix. Tara 51:19 Platform. Margaret 51:21 Streaming. Tara 51:21 Yay! Dave 51:22 Streaming is correct. First point goes to Tara. Nicely done, everybody. That's how you do it. Clue number two coming at you, starting with Sarah. Sarah 51:30 Kingdom. Margaret 51:32 Disney? Tara 51:35 Dragons. Margaret 51:37 Thrones? Sarah 51:41 Winter. Margaret 51:43 Stark? Tara 51:47 Country? Margaret 51:49 Oh, shit. Okay, I know what you're trying to get me to. What is the name of that country? You guys don't understand the way that I just released all information I had. Dave 52:02 Oh, we're very familiar. All right. We're going to take that as a pass. Margaret 52:07 Yeah, I think that's safe. Sarah 52:10 East. Margaret 52:11 Okay. I feel like that means it's starting with an E. I can't believe the way this is so gone from my brain. Nope, that's not getting me there, but thank you for your effort. Dave 52:24 Moving on. Sarah 52:24 Tara? Tara 52:28 Opposite. Margaret 52:29 West. Westeros! Westeros! Dave 52:33 Westeros is correct, yes. Margaret 52:36 Oh, I feel so sorry. Dave 52:39 I think Sarah could have got you there if she put the right amount of opposite mustard on her. Sarah 52:44 That's how it goes sometimes. Tara 52:45 It's all stacked, you know? Dave 52:47 Yeah. All right. It's two for Tara. None for Sarah yet. So lots of games to go. Headphones off, please, Margaret. Margaret 52:54 Sure. Dave 52:55 All right. We are back to Tara for our first clue. Tara 52:58 Ratings. Dave 53:00 Ratings. Margaret 53:00 Nielsen. Dave 53:01 Yes. Right away. Bing, bang, boom. Sarah didn't even get a chance. Dang. All right. Next one is. All right, let's see if Sarah can get it in one. Sarah 53:17 No, definitely can't. Dave 53:19 Remember, Sarah, you can put all the mustard you want on it. Sarah 53:22 I know, I'm just, I'm trying to figure out which mustard is gonna work on the word. Margaret 53:28 Which mustard is gonna get Margaret there? Sarah 53:31 Couch. Margaret 53:33 Couch. Friends? Tara 53:37 Uh, stairs. Margaret 53:39 Cosby? Dave 53:41 Back to Sarah. Sarah 53:45 Moving. Dave 53:47 All right, let's review the clues. We've got... Margaret 53:51 Couch, stairs, moving. Dave 53:52 Yeah. Margaret 53:54 Escalator? Dave 53:55 Back to Tara. Tara 53:59 This, I don't know if this is, if this would count as a synonym, I guess, but adjustment? Dave 54:05 That's fine. Tara 54:06 Okay. Dave 54:07 Deep in thought. Margaret 54:09 Yeah, I just, I'm sure when I hear the answer, I'm going to be like, obviously, but I'm getting nothing. Dave 54:16 All right. Margaret 54:17 Antenna? Dave 54:19 Back to Sarah. Sarah 54:21 Dinosaurs. Tara 54:23 That's good. Margaret 54:25 Dinosaurs. Dave 54:26 Or is it just leading her so far astray? What the fuck is this show? Margaret 54:31 Oh, God. Flintstones? turn, I have no idea I'm beginning to wonder if I've ever watched television before in my life alright pass. Dave 54:49 Go to Sarah pass. Sarah 54:52 Uh, sitcom. Margaret 54:55 Okay, well, that's reassuring. I feel like... Dave 54:58 It's not Terra Nova. Margaret 54:59 I've been guessing in that direction. Simpsons? Tara 55:04 Stuck. Dave 55:05 Stuck. Margaret 55:06 See, the problem with dinosaurs is all I get is the sitcom dinosaurs, and I know it can't be that because you've said dinosaurs. Dave 55:14 Right. Margaret 55:16 Uh, Frasier. Dave 55:18 All right. We got to be getting close to 10 now. Tara 55:21 That was six, I think. Dave 55:22 No way that was six. Sarah 55:24 Who started this round? Tara 55:25 Sarah. Sarah 55:26 Okay, so that's seven, I think. Tara 55:28 Okay. Sarah 55:29 If I'm going, no, all right. Yeah, that was six. This will be seven. Dave 55:33 All right. Margaret 55:34 Okay. Dave 55:35 It feels wrong. Sarah 55:36 Landing. Margaret 55:37 Uh. Dave 55:41 I think Marcus is going to need more. Tara 55:44 Paleontologist. Dave 55:46 Paleontologist, says Tara. Margaret 55:48 Okay. I have a vague recollection. Didn't I already say friends? Dave 55:54 You did say friends. It was not correct. Margaret 55:57 Okay. I mean, he's a paleontologist. Tara 56:01 That was not the correct answer. Dave 56:03 Ross? Margaret 56:06 Damn it. Dave 56:07 Not Ross. Sarah. Sarah 56:08 Direction. Margaret 56:11 Oh, God. Pivot? Dave 56:15 Pivot. Tara 56:16 There we go. Margaret 56:18 Pivot. I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. I have not watched Friends since I was a child. Tara 56:25 It's okay. It's okay. We got there. Dave 56:27 All right. Let's pivot to the next question. Headphones off, Margaret. All right. We're starting with Tara. Tara 56:33 Yep. Dave 56:34 This is our halfway mark. Tara 56:36 Boss. Dave 56:37 Boss. Margaret 56:38 Baby. Sarah 56:42 Love that. Producer. Dave 56:44 Producer. Margaret 56:47 Apprentice? Dave 56:48 Back to Tara. Tara 56:50 Creator. Margaret 56:52 Showrunner. Dave 56:53 Showrunner is correct. Yes. All right. That is halfway. I know the scores, but let's get them officially. Tara 56:59 Okay. Sarah has one. I have four. Dave 57:02 All right. It's going to be hard to catch up, but it's possible. We're going to start with Sarah. We're going to ask Margaret to take her headphones off. all right let's go first clue for number six this is number six is. Sarah 57:17 Is rom-com considered a single word. Dave 57:19 Oh we'll uh. Margaret 57:20 I think if there's a hyphen in the middle yes rom-com. Dave 57:23 Rom-com okay. Margaret 57:25 Rom-com uh mindy, hippie, Okay. Dharma? Tara 57:35 Fuck me. Holy shit. Sarah 57:37 That's ridiculous. Tara 57:38 I can't believe that word. Dave 57:39 That was good. Sarah 57:41 Wow. Tara 57:42 Fucking hell. Margaret 57:43 You thought I was going to get pivot so fast and got Dharma that quickly. Tara 57:47 I was like, we're coming at it from Dharma bums, Dharma initiative. Sarah 57:52 Mm-hmm. Tara 57:52 All right. Dave 57:53 Margaret's a land of contrast. All right. Margaret 57:54 Headphones off, please. Dave 57:56 All right. We're starting with Tara for our next round. Margaret 58:01 Mm-hmm. Dave 58:02 One word clue? Tara 58:03 Exchange. Margaret 58:07 Swap. Wouldn't have been swap. Sorry, Tara. Tara 58:15 Could have been swap. Sarah 58:16 Event. Dave 58:16 Event. Margaret 58:17 Event. Crossover. Dave 58:20 Yes! Crossover is correct. Sarah 58:21 Nicely done. All right. Dave 58:24 Margaret came out to play in the second half. Sarah 58:26 Wow. Took a village. Woo! Dave 58:28 All right. We're starting with Sarah. Number eight. Sarah 58:33 Pump. Dave 58:34 Hump. Sarah 58:36 Pump. Dave 58:39 Dangerous clue if you ask me i. Margaret 58:42 Know you're not giving me joe camel because that's two words it's not especially television related uh but let's just go with no camel yeah sure camel. Dave 58:52 It's not camel okay uh uki uki hump uki my favorite star wars bounty hunter, Wednesday is the correct answer yes well done nicely done there's two more we just play them out here is our penultimate clue first out of the gate on this one is Tar, superimposed superimposed wow Chiron holy shit should. Tara 59:29 I leave, Margaret I think we should get married. Dave 59:34 That was amazing wait what i. Margaret 59:38 Should be so lucky tara. Dave 59:39 All right last one margaret take your headphones off all right here comes the last set of clues this one is going with sarah first right yes yes. Margaret 59:53 Oh, Maggie? Tara 59:56 Maggie, yes, correct. Margaret 59:58 I really wanted to give that one to Sarah. Sarah 1:00:01 I know. Margaret 1:00:04 And that's so elegant. You brought it to Margaret. Dave 1:00:09 All right, let's get the regulation scores, please. Tara 1:00:12 Regulation scores are Sarah with three, me with seven. Dave 1:00:16 All right, and Margaret gets a point for getting over half of them. But also, Tara gets a point, which means that we have two winners. But also, Tara wins the season. Oh, the music went. Oh, no. Nothing's ever going to keep it down. Oh, no. Sarah 1:00:47 Keep going. Dave 1:00:48 The music industry has come knocking on our door. God damn it. It was bound to happen eventually. Tara 1:00:54 Speaking of the karate kid. Dave 1:00:57 All right, everybody. Thank you so much. That is it for another episode of Extra Hot Great. We traveled to Beantown for the next chapter in the Blueiverse, Boston Blue, before going around the dial with stops at Downey Wrote That, The Good Wife, The Good Fight, Love Is Blind, and Task. Tara 1:01:15 Woo, woo, woo. See you! Dave 1:01:18 Never Knot Mike unpacked Mad Men's suitcase, finally! For the canon, we crowned winners and losers of the week, and Tara and Margaret were the winners of this week's Game Time. Next up, October's fourth inning pool on Friday's Extra Extra Hot Great, and it welcomed the dairy back here in one week's time. Remember... I am David T. Cole, and on behalf of Tara Arrieta. Tara 1:01:46 Let's go somewhere darker. Dave 1:01:48 Sarah D. Butting. Sarah 1:01:50 Have you been farting in here? Dave 1:01:53 And Margaret A. Twillison. Margaret 1:01:55 Pivot! Dave 1:01:58 Thanks for listening. We'll see you next time, right here on Extra. On Great.