Checking The Perimeter With Murderbot

Dave: [0:21] This is the Extra Hot Great Podcast, episode 563 for the week of May 19th, 2025. I am cold comfort bot David T. Cole, and I'm here with corporate garbage Sarah D. Bunting. Sarah: [0:40] I'm a feature, not a bug. Dave: [0:42] Filthy human body, Tara Arellano. Tara: [0:44] I'm supposed to brush my teeth every day? Dave: [0:46] And sanctuary moon superfan Catherine Van Arendar. Kathryn: [0:50] Did the comfort bot sabotage the ship? Tara: [0:56] Welcome to Extra Hot Great for another week. Joining us, she is a writer and critic at Vulture and a co-host of the podcast Appointment Television. You've heard her with us many times before. It's Catherine Van Arundong. Dave: [1:09] Yay! Kathryn: [1:11] Oh, hello. Tara: [1:12] Hello. We are here to talk about Murderbot, in which, in the future, the corporation mandates the use of security units, partly organic engineered cyborgs, on operations undertaken throughout the parts of the galaxy said corporation controls, which seems like most of it. Security Unit 238776431, played by Alexander Skarsgård, has, when we first meet it, been stationed with a mining expedition where the workers seem to have routinely blown off steam by giving the security unit painful or humiliating orders. Because each security unit is equipped with a governor module, they are required to obey. Tara: [1:50] What the miners don't know is that this security unit figured out how to hack its governor module to do what it wants, which is mainly watch TV. But in order not to get identified as having gone rogue, it has to pretend its governor module works normally. Only we get to hear its disdainful narration about how much it would love to kill all these human idiots and live freely. Everything changes when the mining assignment ends and this security unit, which has renamed itself Murderbot, is sent on a new mission with a bunch of hippie scientists who don't even really see the need to have a security unit and are uncomfortable about making anything sentient do anything it doesn't affirmatively consent to do. How will they all get along? And for God's sake, will Murderbot still have the time and leisure to get back to its shows? Based on a series of books by Martha Wells, the show is adapted by Paul Weitz and Chris Weitz, originally of American Pie fame, although in various combinations they've also worked on About a Boy and the Twilight movie series. Tara: [2:44] Two episodes dropped Friday on Apple TV Plus with six more to come weekly. We got access to the whole season, but we'll be careful about details from episodes that have not dropped yet. Let's do the Chen check-in. Catherine, should our listeners watch Murderbot? Kathryn: [2:57] I mean, yeah, I mean, it's nice. It's a nice thing. Tara: [3:00] Sarah? Sarah: [3:01] Yeah, I thought it was good. Tara: [3:03] Dave? Dave: [3:03] Yeah, I think it's a good time. Tara: [3:05] My tone of voice is exactly like Catherine. You know, the episodes are only like under 25 minutes a lot of the time. Kathryn: [3:12] Right. Tara: [3:12] Why not? Kathryn: [3:13] Sure. Tara: [3:14] So Catherine, I know you've been steeping in Andor lately. I wonder if you would also like to know what a KX series droid might think of this largely mushy character calling itself Murderbot. Kathryn: [3:25] Yes, yes. Yes. I have a lot of feelings. I have thoughts, but a lot of them I have had to admit to myself are feelings about this show. Tara: [3:34] Go on. Kathryn: [3:35] In part, it is I had the unusual position like for a TV critic, which is that I like love all of these books very dearly. Once upon a time, I would have considered that to be a really helpful and like almost necessary thing for writing criticism about a TV adaptation, and now that is like the most foolhardy game ever, right? There's just simply humanly impossible. I think, frankly, even Murderbot couldn't do it. And so it is very rare, actually, that I am writing criticism of a show where I'm like very familiar with the original works. And a lot of my feelings-ish stem from that sort of familiarity in how much I love the original books. But I will say, partly because of the original books, like there's a lot more murdering in the books. And Murderbot's name is more earned in a way that feels like there's a lot more friction there. So anyway, we'll get into it. But generally, that's kind of where my sense of slight ambiguity comes from on that. Tara: [4:35] Dave, you also dabbled in the books. What are your thoughts or feelings about the adaptation? Dave: [4:40] Well, it's a little different from Catherine's journey, because what I did is I watched the first screener when we had it, the pilot, and then I went back and read the first book it was based on, and then I watched the rest of the first season. So I had my first murder bot was Skarsgård, and then I read the book, and then I watched the rest of the show, and I was doing some very non-spoilery, very vague things to our Discord, which is like, because they're like mad for murder bots. They're mad for Murderbot. And I was like, it kind of felt the first episode like one of those tongue-in-cheek Black Mirror episodes. It's got that vibe to it. And then I read the book and I was like, well, that seemed off and this seemed off. And, you know, maybe some of the characters were like a superficial wash and it didn't quite play the same in the show as the book. So, I mean, you always invite those comparisons when you have an adaptation like this. Dave: [5:32] And I'm going to get letters about this. My problems with the books is that they're incredibly repetitive, at least the ones I've read so far, like the 30 pages of Murderbot doing scans in the feed and talking to other bots. If that's your jam, we got a lot of it waiting for you in text. So that part of it where that is fast forwarded in the TV show, I appreciated it. But a lot of other things like I didn't picture Skarsgård as Murderbot after reading the first book at all. I mean, that is a tricky casting for sure, but he seemed much more, or rather it seemed much more androgynous in the book. And like in my mind, I was picturing like a young Tilda Swinton playing Murderbot, something like that. So that was a bit of a, oh, I took an adjustment. And then all the hippies that he's surrounded with on his first I am a free Murderbot mission, a lot of them seemed like that sort of trap. a lot of minor ensemble cast members fall into where it's like, I have one thing about me and here's that one thing. And I felt that was a disservice as well. But overall, it's a fun time and the 22 minutes episode length really helps. And they're ending it on a little cliffhanger each time. So that is kind of fun. But I didn't get the same sense of Murderbot in the show as I did in the book. Kathryn: [6:51] Yeah. Tara: [6:52] Okay, Sarah, we'll bring you in in just a second, but one more book thing since Dave brought it up. And Catherine, you touched on this in your review, which we'll link in the show notes. Talk about the choice to cast a male identifying and presenting actor as a murder bot and why it's controversial, because people on our Discord were mad. I won't say big mad, but they had consternation about it, I would say. Kathryn: [7:12] I was consterned also. Tara: [7:14] Yes. Kathryn: [7:15] I think partly this is just the unavoidable reality that there are not a lot of characters who people are able to really love and find relatable who are existing outside of a kind of easy male-female binary situation. There are just not that many. And so when you take one that people are very attached to and you're like, I'm not going to say if it has a gender, but I am going to cast Alexander Skarsgård to play it like you are implying quite heavily or welcoming or certainly not pushing back against certain kinds of gendered readings of who that character is. For what it's worth, my preferred Murderbot casting would have been somebody like Roberta Kalindrez, who I think is like a really fun kind of butch, but female, like there's a lot of stuff in the soup of that one. And I think that would have been really a good time. And I think it would have played against the kinds of associations that Murderbot is really stuck with, which is the kind of what a violent body looks like, which is something particularly as the book series goes on, there's more and more pressure on. And so, yeah, that is something that I the part of why I think that the conversation, the other element of that, which is about and related to gender. Kathryn: [8:27] But is more about the kinds of transhumanism things that the book is considering as far as like what an AI intelligence is, what a cyborg intelligence is, what it means to be human is that because it has this really voicey first person narrator and you are only able to see all of these other characters from its perspective. Your whole idea of what like gender and humanity and norms are comes entirely through it. And as soon as you move that into a TV context where you're seeing all of these things from like an objective camera eye, where I, a 40-year-old white woman, am looking at other people and being like, well, that's clearly a woman, even though Murderbot may or may not see or value those things. I am bringing my own objective frame right to that whole reading. And I don't know how any kind of screen adaptation could have avoided that. I cannot imagine, short of a Nickel Boys-esque inside the POV, which clearly was never going to happen, how you would do that. And so I don't begrudge that element of it. But I do find that the TV series is just less interesting to think about. And it hits me less deeply than the books do. Dave: [9:40] Yeah, I think that difference is what I was getting at, because Murderbot has this conception of humans at the start, which is like they're weak and they're not so great. Yeah. And he has a particular viewpoint or lack of viewpoint on a lot of them at the start. But then when you switch to a TV show, you have to fill out those characters because we are now experiencing, not Murderbot experiencing them. And that's what I was saying about a lot of the hippie explorers. There were kind of one note, and if we could have fleshed them out, it would have really helped Murderbot as well. the character, but it didn't quite get there. Kathryn: [10:12] Yeah. Note on gender also, although they never say in the show whether Murderbot has a gender or uses pronouns or what those pronouns would be. There is a shot in the first episode where we get a full look at the Ken doll anatomy. me suggesting that Murderbot does exist outside of, but who knows? I think in a very, very corporate-y Apple way, they were also like, oh man, you know what's so interesting is robots and people and how we think about robots and people and gender. Anyway, the robots and the people are so fascinating. Tara: [10:46] I mean, I do think it's interesting in the show how they like, after the mask comes off, they work, they call it it at first when it doesn't seem like it has a face. And then when it does, it's like they have correcting itself. Don't say he, say it. So Sarah, we know you have an affinity for the space focused programming of Apple TV Plus, at least in terms of space show, which some people call for all mankind. Sarah: [11:06] That's true. Tara: [11:07] Watching this one, though, I thought the bunciest way in might be the reference to the scientists and their homemade clothes. Were there other ways it grabbed you? Sarah: [11:16] Well, it kept shit moving, which I appreciated. And I didn't think like because I had not trucked with the books. I did feel like they were like these questions of gender and assumptions and conventional unconscious biases towards dividing things up that way and anthropomorphizing everything from animals to machines to household appliances. It's not just me grumbling at Fawcety for being a drip. So I thought that they made those things, like they provoked thought about those things, but also were concerned with moving the plot along and being... snarky and funny. And I thought the balance was good. And I also thought that it was a little closer to part of what initially appealed to me about For All Mankind. Sarah: [12:12] Aka Space Show, as God intended it to be titled, was it started out like them sort of talking through what it would really be like in this timeline. And then it became, but what if they strapped her to an air conditioner drink and it's like a soap basically this felt at least in terms of the hippie scientist characters like yes they were one note but they had moments where they actually felt much closer to how people would be reacting to these circumstances like that this giant two headed sand crab nearly at the mission and then once the one scientist is out of med bay like Everyone's super excited and they're squealing to see each other. And it's like, this is much more sort of normal and recognizable than whatever extremely muted, stuffed down Star Trek character returning to the bridge stoicism you usually get in space shows. So that's what I responded to. But I did read Catherine's review. And I do think once you decide that you're going to cast a gendered actor, probably because he can do these micro expressions that if he is playing a bot, it is important to have a Skarsgård who can do that. But then that decision tree, all the other things branch out from that, and you, I think, do lose some ideas. Sarah: [13:40] And also that the voiceover is kind of, I mean, I would say neutered, but let's go with hamstrung in this case, because it's a movie and you're seeing it, or a TV show and you're seeing it. So, yeah, I mean, I liked it. I responded to it. I'm going to keep watching it. But I think I'm not going to get near the books, at least until after I'm done, because I think that is definitely a situation where they can't really coexist if you've dealt with the books. Dave: [14:07] So the way everybody's talking about it, I almost feel like the best adaptation would be a first person adventure video game of this. Kathryn: [14:14] 100 percent. Sarah: [14:15] Yeah. Dave: [14:16] Your murder bot. Sarah: [14:17] I was thinking that when you were talking. Yeah. Dave: [14:18] I mean, it would sell 20 copies probably outside of the fan base, but it feels like the truest way to tackle it. Tara: [14:26] Mm hmm. Catherine, you wrote about this as well. A lot of pop culture about robots revolves around the synthetic characters wanting to be human, which is not the case here. But Murderbot does love watching TV, which is one of the most human things we do. So talk about that tension. Kathryn: [14:42] There are a lot of TV critics I know who love Murderbot books. And it really is like, wow, I can't see why I truly have no idea why it is that everyone is responding so warmly to this story of somebody who has learned humanity through countless hours of terrible soaps. Yes, Murderbot watches. And part of the sort of reason that it is so focused on making sure its governor module stays hacked and is not fixed is that it knows that without that, it can download and have access to the whole world's data feed of all TV. And it watches lots and lots of TV shows, but its favorite is called The Rise and Fall of Sanctuary Moon. And obviously, this is a case where actually having a TV show gives you texture that the book cannot because the TV show can include these little stupid clips of what Sanctuary Moon is like. I have had arguments with other people who have seen this show and read the books and like, is the show version of this show too dumb? Should it be more plausibly like a thing people actually would watch or less like a daytime soap? To me, it is very daytime soap. I don't know. I actually had no issue with that. I think there is nothing about the books that suggests that Murderbot has good taste in TV. Dave: [15:57] It would have been funny if they actually for all mankind the show. Like it was basically for all mankind in the universe. Kathryn: [16:03] That would be so great. Sarah: [16:04] And he's like muttering it like, oh my God. Like why hasn't Ed retired? He's got to be 87 years old. Kathryn: [16:10] Why is she sleeping with him? Oh my God. That would be, why did they not do this? Well, because Apple has no sense of humor is ultimately the answer to that. Sarah: [16:18] But that true. Kathryn: [16:19] Yeah. Oh, yeah. A creator told me as I was talking to them because they had were pitching a thing to Apple TV and this is relevant. They were pitching a thing for Apple TV and they didn't really they were kind of outside of the Hollywood system. They really were not plugged in to like what all of what was going on. And so what Apple told them apparently was that like the project would need to fit in with the Apple style. And they said, what is the Apple style? And they were told it has to be something Steve Jobs or Tim Cook would like. it has to be something you could imagine them watching and and so i do think there is a way that this show is kind of like like i actually would not be shocked to learn that tim cook also likes the murder bot books tim cook seems like just enough of a nerd to really be a murder bot enjoyer but the kinds of things that it is reflected is like yeah the stupid sanctuary Moon with like Flock of Seagulls hair. And like very much in the Skarsgård is cast as Murderbot and emphasizing some things and de-emphasizing, for example, the constant repetitive insistent that the books have that corporations are so evil, which doesn't make as much of an appearance in this show. That's crazy. Surprised by that. Dave: [17:37] Sorry, follow up question to that little story. Steve Jobs or Tim Cook, which one really wanted to watch Dear Edward? Tara: [17:45] Which one really wanted to watch Dickinson is what I wanted to know. Sarah: [17:49] Yeah. Kathryn: [17:50] There are unending follow-up questions. Also, for example, Steve Jobs having passed away many, many years ago would suggest that I cannot imagine him watching anything past, say, the West Wing. Tara: [18:01] Right. Dave: [18:02] They just prop him up with his thumbed up. Good show. So, hey, just before we get off the Sanctuary Moon thing, the other thing about in the books that I actually enjoyed a lot is that Sanctuary Moon becomes currency for Murderbot in the book. Like he'll need to get from A to B and he'll go to like some system that controls the ship, like a bot on the ship. And he'll be like, if you let me on, I could give you 20 episodes of Sanctuary Moon. And then it's like, blah, blah, blah. And there's this whole ecosystem of technology that the humans don't realize. I wouldn't say they're sentient exactly, but they have sort of like thought processes. And it's very Flintstones vacuum cleaner. Like, it's a living. There's this whole ecosystem about like, you know, non-ambulatory robots in this world that is quite enjoyable. Those are the parts of the books that I actually enjoyed the most. Tara: [18:48] Yeah. Kathryn: [18:49] Yes. Yeah. Tara: [18:50] To backtrack to the Apple of it all, though, I feel like a show on this platform making it at least an explicit story element that the company is corrupt and its shitty equipment surveils the people who buy it. It feels like a limited hangout from Apple. Like, we'll give you this much and no more. Kathryn: [19:06] Yes, 100%. Yes. Yeah. And, you know, hashtag not all corporations, right? Whereas the books are really like, yes, all corporations. Yes, all corporations. Tara: [19:17] Mm-hmm. Kathryn: [19:17] The sense of the other characters feeling insufficiently human, actually, and not in the way Sarah was talking about, which I actually really, really agree with one of my favorite things about how they treat, particularly the early episodes, is that the minor character, I can't remember what her name is because of exactly the point, gets attacked. And then she's like actually quite upset and like has to keep dealing with the sort of ongoing PTSD of having been attacked by this giant worm thing. And this, again, is like is fantastic, except everyone else then is like having reactions to and interactions with each other that felt quite implausible to me, given given their circumstances. And we're just treated in a much more comic vein. And it's not that the books aren't funny. They're very funny. But the books are quite dark, like the way that Murderbot sees the world. and the TV show was like, what if we made everything super colorful? Now, I feel like I have transformed in some bizarre version of myself because I like when things are colorful. Like, thank God, a half hour show where everything goes fast and it clips along and things are colorful and people have nice- And not everything is grayish. Sarah: [20:23] Yeah, exactly. Kathryn: [20:24] Yes, and people have a nice time with each other. All these things, these are good, good things. And this is why I have not been like, ooh, Murderbot, because I don't feel that way at all. Tara: [20:31] Yeah. Kathryn: [20:32] But I am stuck with this other thing in my head. Dave: [20:34] Well, you do get the sense that the corporate rim, which is like basically where the whole thing takes place, is this very dark and yucky place, like Blade Runner-y or something like that. Like you don't want to be there. Kathryn: [20:46] Yeah, for sure. Tara: [20:49] That feels like enough, right? Dave: [20:51] Should we say more? I got to go. Tara: [20:53] Okay. Dave: [20:53] I'm going to talk around it. But my absolute favorite episode is episode five. Anna Conkle from 1015 comes in. and the disparity between how her character behaves on screen and the rest of the people around her really because it'll highlight some of my earlier criticisms but she was fantastic i wanted more and more of her so you got that to look forward to yeah. Kathryn: [21:17] Yeah 100 percent. Dave: [21:25] Anybody else kind of get um a dante and randall energy towards their customers energy from murder bot i think that's like if you haven't watched it they kind of got this clerks thing going on yeah yeah yeah. Sarah: [21:36] I could see that. Dave: [21:37] Yeah salsa shark well let's go around the dial starting with tarot. Tara: [21:41] Well, speaking of shows about characters with sweet faces and chin clefts who are hiding potentially ruinous secrets, I watched Overcompensating. This is a sitcom about Benny, who's played by Benito Skinner, who also created the show. Benny was a textbook high school superstar who played football, was his class's valedictorian, and apparently dated girls, but never actually had sex with any of them because Benny is queer and very closeted. We meet him as he's on his way to Yates University as a freshman, where his sister Grace, who's played by Mary Beth Barone, also attends. It is not made explicit that he made this choice so that her presence would be a guardrail against him feeling too free to be totally himself in college. But regardless, she serves a useful story purpose, keeping him from coming out. And Benny quickly makes a female friend named Carmen, played by Wally Baram, after an attempted hookup with her doesn't work out. He also develops a crush on Miles, played by Rish Shah, whom he follows into a film class that Benny may or may not otherwise care about. Tara: [22:39] And like English Teacher, of which I will not say more, this show was surely sold in part on the social media fame of its creator slash star. Benito Skinner is Benny Drama 7 on all of the video platforms where he posts comedy sketches. And for that reason, I was wary about what the show was going to be like. But the writers include Mitra Johari from Big Mouth and Pat Regan from Hacks. So more guardrails, in this case, keeping it from being too online-y. And I've seen complaints that it seems to be set in the present, but doesn't actually reflect what life is like for Gen Alpha. And I get that would be annoying for a young person. But to me, the difference between a Zoomer, who are in their 30s now, and anyone younger who's been through puberty is, like, not perceptible. Yeah, all of these college freshmen are played by 30-somethings, but I actually thought that was kind of a fun throwback to the high school and college set pop culture of my own youth. Like, made Luke Perry rest, but as a high school sophomore, he had deeper forehead furrows than I do, and as we know, I'm 78. But parts of the show are obviously very deep and serious. Mostly it's a college comedy in the classic sense that people are hooking up, being in bad relationships, ignoring their classes, constantly getting drunk and high, which might be what you're in the mood for. And I'll also add Adam DeMarco from The White Lotus Season 2 is in it, possibly partly because it's... quite obviously filmed in Toronto and he is Canadian, but he's also very funny and cute, even though he's playing an absolute shit bag. And you see his bare ass a lot in case that's important to you. Turned out to be important to me. So just FYI. Tara: [24:04] And I reviewed Odette Cracked and we'll link that in the show notes. So overcompensating all eight episodes are out on Prime Video right now. Dave: [24:12] All right, Catherine, what have you been watching recently? Kathryn: [24:15] I've been watching a lot of things. It will be interesting to see what this is what the kids are like right now. Comedy feels like by the end of a month or so from now, because in addition to overcompensating, there's also FX's Adults that's going to be coming out and eventually also a new Lena Dunham show called Too Much, which is a different generation. I'm not going to talk about those other shows at this moment, but I do think it's worth just kind of mentally keeping track if this is a genre that is interesting to you. Just the ways people are trying to be like, what are young people right now? Who are they? What shape do they take? What is this language that they speak? You know, I think every generation gets its own crop of these kinds of shows. And this feels like the kind of first big wave of this. There have been others, but like particularly for creators who are in that, not that Lena Dunham is a millennial, but there's a Leo Wright character. Anyway, anyway, I think that we're going to be do so many voice of my generation or at least a voice of a generation takes. They're coming. I can feel them coming. Tara: [25:22] Yeah. Well, preview for our listeners, we will be talking about adults on Extra Extra Hot Great next week. The episode dropping on the 30th. So look out for that. Kathryn: [25:31] Yes. So I've been watching those. I have been watching, as I think you mentioned, Kathryn: [25:36] I've been watching Andor, which I really like. I have been watching this season of The Rehearsal, which is really bonkers in a way that has made me feel strong feelings about the way Nathan Fielder does most things, but particularly finales. and although I have discovered that I think I hate most of his finales there is something I really admire about the instinct that he has to sort of get to the end and like discover a trap door in the show that you were watching and be like there's this whole other room down here like oh my god look at that other room that's been here this whole time which I really do do respect in in like the way that a season television season can be structured so I've thing about that. Kathryn: [26:22] Most recently, I have binged all 10 episodes of The Secret Lives of Mormon Wives Season 2. Kathryn: [26:30] And I bring this up partly because that's what's in my brain right now, but also because I think it's going to be relevant for later in this episode. Let me tell you, those Mormon wives have a lot going on in their secret lives. I feel for them. I do. They just can't seem to catch a break. It is one of those shows that is, of course, inane on any possible measure. But it also, I think, does reveal so much about, unintentionally, about so many things that are happening in like American culture at this moment. I find it particularly fascinating on like pregnancy and the fact that like they all keep getting pregnant all the time and all of the like end of Roe v. Wade and also like none of them can have abortions and like what happens in your marriage when it's unhappy but you're still pregnant element of it. But also just from a TV mechanical standpoint, like it's got a mess with their ability to do continuity editing of this reality show that their characters keep getting pregnant all the time. So that I think is really fascinating. It's like, obviously, the sort of Mormon cult of it all is very much a part of what they're all talking about. And there are several scenes in this season where they're like, walk right up to the line of being like, isn't it sort of bullshit that we have to spend eternity on a planet with our exes who we hate? And then everyone's like, yeah. And you're like, ladies. Sarah: [27:52] You're so close. Kathryn: [27:55] Please, just keep going. it. So there's that element of it. And there's I mean, there's a there's a lot of that kind of stuff that I think it is just like social media, like one of the huge fights in this season is like, you know, that nobody made a post about nobody commented on Taylor's CMA's post and they can't they can't get over that. It is a rich, rich text. And I both love and hate that for it and all of us. Sarah: [28:21] That's how I used to talk about Teen Mom. So. Kathryn: [28:24] Yep. Tara: [28:25] I'll say my only contact with the show is what I get filtered through the Patreon for I Said No Gifts, which is a podcast that I've mentioned on this show many times. It's hosted by Bridger Weininger, who is an ex-Mormon, is no longer in the faith for a lot of reasons, one of which is he's gay and he's a comedy writer in L.A. So he's done a couple of what he's very dryly calling emergency podcast episodes about the new season. And they're great. He says his boyfriend's out of town, so he's just sitting in the kitchen, looking into his microwave and just narrating all of his thoughts about Secret Lives of Mormon Wives. And that's all I need from Gulture. So I recommend that strongly. Dave: [29:02] All right, Catherine, you're a busy person. Where can people find you, read more about you, see you in person, perhaps? Kathryn: [29:08] You can find me at Vulture.com. I am posting over there on Blue Ski a lot of the time now. And if you happen to be in Austin for the ATX Festival, I am going to be hosting or moderating a conversation with Tony Gilroy and Bo Williman about Andor. And I don't know if you've ever heard those guys talk, but they have lots of wild things to say. Nobody ever listened to those guys talk and thought like, huh, not a lot going on in their heads. And I can tell you that actually the last time, I don't think he remembers this, but I think the last time I did a panel with Tony Gilroy, I kind of got into a big fight with him on the stage. So about whether TV had episodes and that matters. So we'll see. I think it'll be fun. Dave: [29:55] Awesome. All right. Check out the show notes for all that info. Dave: [30:01] Sarah D. Bunting, what have you been watching recently? Let us know. Sarah: [30:04] Nothing prestigious and nothing that accidentally says anything about anything it's leverage colon redemption third season started last month i meant to check it out when it dropped and just didn't get around to it but this is one of the beauties of leverage it's one of those shows you don't need to get around to until you are ready have a cold your plans got rained out you have bills to pay whatever the deal. I dipped in with episode two, The Frankenstein Job, because it involved the leverageurs creating an AI tech bro named Frank Stanford, huh? To fuck with a corrupt judge, played by Rachel Harris, and because I wanted to see if I could still accept Noah Wiley as a clean-shaven, PG-13-talking dude after a full season of The Pit. It worked out for me. As usual, Leverage Redemption is perfectly cromulent. It's doing bits for the knowing grunter liberal boomers on the legality of sketchy contributions, medical bills sending little old ladies' houses into foreclosure, vaporware, the mediocrity of white guys. It's naming a judge Marlene Gannon. Sarah: [31:16] I don't get it. And it's all very obvious, on the nose, digestible. But like I said, that is the charm of this show, I think, and shows like it. It knows exactly what it is and whom it's for, and it operates from a very confident place very smoothly. Plus, occasionally, Christian Cain is doing a slapstick bit where he's faking a YouTube video for his character in the cons prepper channel, and a tree falls on him, and it's just straightforward physical comedy, but the expectedness is the point of it. It does seem like based on Wiley being listed as a guest star in a lot of these episodes this season that they might have filmed it around the pit or other stuff, and he might have a lesser role. But Noah Wiley's brief was almost entirely save us from the Timothy Hutton PR nightmare, and he met that shit years ago, in my opinion. So I think there's not a ton else to say. It's one of those have it on for chores or crafting shows. But if you need to save it for a rainy long weekend with your, I don't know, more centrist than you, family in a question mark, you're good like that too. It's kind of a crowd like non non pleaser. I don't know how else to put it. Most of the third season has already dropped. New episodes drop Thursdays. That is on Prime. Sarah: [32:34] Which you may have unsubscribed from. And fair enough, times are tough. If you also had to unsubscribe from our Patreon or you didn't sign up yet because you're feeling the fiscal pinch, just a reminder, Extra Hot Great has a mutual aid vault. You do not have to justify your existence to get a year's subscription to the Patreon. You only have to ask. It's completely anonymous, except to me, and I am a forgetful old broad who still drinks brown liquor. So just email me if you're interested. bunting at tomato nation.com and if you're interested in donating that is really rad of you same email address to learn more in either direction thank you again to admiral anonymous for suggesting this idea and all the other a non-a-my who have donated so far we are glad that we're keeping everybody together all. Dave: [33:22] Right coming up on extra extra hot great this friday It is the May foursening, and it's going to be the series premiere of LA's Finest. What is that? I don't know. I'm going to find out soon. That's available to club members. If you're not a club member, go to extrahotgreat.com slash club. And of course, you can contact Sarah if you want to be part of the Mutual Aid Vault. And then coming up right here next week on EHG Prime, we're going to be talking about the HBO doc Pee Wee as himself. And we're welcoming back Will Hines for that one. Don't miss it. Dave: [34:04] It is time for the Extra Hot Great Canon, presenting this week, it's Anne with an E. Hello, Extra Hot Great. Today I'm presenting for the Canon, the season four finale of The. Sarah: [36:10] Could be the CIA, honestly. Both are very likely with this crew. And then during the party, we see the PAs scuttling around battling the elements and sprinting to shut doors and drapes during the mystery. Sarah: [38:44] That's not true entirely. So here's why I hit pause and make my fourth point. This reality von Teese twist is insane, girl wasted on caffeine at her 11th birthday party or whatever. This season was a breath of fresh air after Homeland Security interrupted filming on Season 3 to look for Jen Shaw. But a few weeks before this finale aired, it's nothing without the post-production work. The Tabernacle Choir is the best score ever, and that's a constant feature of the show. Kathryn: [41:20] But this episode specifically, I swear to God, was guest-directed by Christopher Nolan. Sarah: [41:25] It has non-linear storytelling and a dramatic whomp every 30 seconds. It's what I wish Interstellar was. They squeeze an incredible amount of content into this episode without having to push it into a two-parter or a special 90-minute finale or anything like that. Tara: [42:08] Timeline. Screenshots. Eat everything. Control. Receipts. Truth. Sarah: [42:22] Wow. Kathryn: [42:23] Yeah. Sarah: [42:24] Wow. Tara: [42:24] Thank you. And with an E, Catherine, please start off our conversation about this presentation. Kathryn: [42:29] I chose this canon presentation of the list that I was and part why I chose it is that I had been watching Secret Lives of Mormon Wives and I was like, okay, let's let's sort of just stay swimming in this pool. I had seen some of Salt Lake City, but I don't think I had watched any since maybe season two. And so I was very curious how this sort of one out of context episode would play. I think it is one of the major reasons why reality has both such incredible fandom, but also it is really hard to kind of hold up in a sort of canon like prestige way where you say, like, look at this one beautiful piece and let's talk about its incredible internal excellence. Like it is really hard to enter these things, I find. And then even when you do, you are still noticing all of the ways that that you've missing so many references. One of the arguments that I found most compelling and that I watching it was most taken with was like, this is an exquisite hour of television that absolutely does stand alone, even if you have no idea what the hell is going on with these women. It is so... Kathryn: [43:43] Stupid to use an eight hours earlier framing device for something like this. It is so incredibly dumb. And in a prestige television show where they gave me that and it was then some kind of like, how did we get up to this thriller ending? I would be making so many jerk off gestures that people would have to I would have to go to urgent care for wrist damage. Kathryn: [44:08] And in this context it is already so tongue-in-cheek to be doing that kind of thing everyone who's doing it is very much in on the joke of how overplayed that is that it's just delightful but you are also then given this like heather is she is essentially doing a like hercule proro kind of like i gathered all of the people together and i laid out the evidence and then we get to watch what happens when you confront the villain at the end. And so it is entirely unnecessary to actually know who any of these people are because it is such a beautifully compact thing. So there's that. I also had not actually seen any of the reveal of it was a surprise to me. And I was also persuaded by the argument that this is essentially the purest and yet most dramatic something like this can be without you feeling terrible about it because no one is actually being defrauded. Kathryn: [45:06] No one is actually, you know, there's nobody has committed suicide, a thing that does happen to somebody's husband in one of the Beverly Hills seasons. No one is being abused in terrible ways. And it is playing in exactly the same kind of space that the show itself does, which is like, here is a social media platform. Like, I found it striking that one of the other women, I can't remember if it was Meredith or I can't remember the rest of their names, was like, I can't have somebody in here who's filming me. And then the camera, all of the footage could just be out on the Internet. And you're like, this is a reality show. Like, how is that not how is that the thing that you are? And and yet, of course, I feel her betrayal. I feel her sense of like this was a thing that that my my trust was betrayed. And then and so sort of on all of those like structural and sort of thematic merits I was But then you get to the parts where it's like, they're doing it all amid what appears to be gale force winds. Tara: [46:01] Yeah. Kathryn: [46:02] And they're sitting there with their little tiny shrugs. One of them is cocooned like a sandworm from Dune at one point, just trying to like live inside this blanket. It reaches incredible heights of absurdity. For me, this is like a if you're going to do any Real Housewives episode, like it's like a Vanderpump. What else could it be if it's not an episode like this? And so this is like, yes, no question. I'm pro. Dave: [46:27] The thing for me that was like, oh, this is going to be like a weird editing treat was right at the start of the episode. There are 17 thunderclaps in about 30 seconds as they're sort of doing their little preamble to the smorgasbord that's about to come. And even the captions, if you had them on, thunderclap, thunderclap. It's just like so egregious. Sarah: [46:52] Ominous clouds. Yeah, exactly. Dave: [46:53] They added so many. It was like The Bride of Frankenstein was happening in the background. It was just great. Sarah: [47:00] I was not familiar with this Real Housewives franchise. I didn't really know anything about it except because I do true crime stuff that you were aware of Jed Shaw. So when you're rolling into something like this in a canon presentation, it's like, okay, this is not, like the framework is not an outstanding episode of a already good show. This is either, is this a water cooler moment, or did this melt a social media platform when it happened, or is it an A-plus-ultra conversation about this show or this franchise? And I think that it qualifies on a lot of those levels. This is fairly classic Real Housewives in that if you are coming to it completely new, you don't know anyone's name. Everyone's kind of dressed the same David's Bridelly way, and they're trying to do an activity while wearing, I don't even know what, like some poochy bustier. Tara: [47:59] Yeah, it took me a long time to realize that Angie and Monica were two different ladies. Dave: [48:05] I was about to make the same observation, but I have no idea if we're talking about the same two people. Tara: [48:09] Well, the two brown-haired ones who are not Meredith or Lisa. Sarah: [48:13] Angie is like, okay, maybe, like, thank you for not blending, because otherwise I wouldn't know that you were not the same person. Kathryn: [48:20] Yeah. Sarah: [48:20] But you're immediately sort of thrown in and, like, you get a sense. It's like a daytime soap that you're very quickly immersed in it and able to choose sides, by which I mean root against everyone for different reasons. This is also extremely well-produced and tongue-in-cheek, and there's something about this that is like, it is so dramatic, but it's so dramatic in that way that a Real Housewives finale or second-to-last episode will be, because this is reunion-fueled. This is how you get three episodes after the season proper. Sarah: [49:00] Which really you know if you're in the know you just watch the reunions and it's like they'll tell you what you need to know about the season much more efficient but this was also like there wasn't a lot of filler like amity said it was like a lot of plot and that's not usually true the promise of the. Sarah: [49:20] Title was paid off and yet at the same time like yeah fuck yeah like mull it up on this show with these dummies. I mean, who cares? I did roll over into the reunion, which is like, that's the buncy criterion that it's like, did I want to keep watching it? I was like, well, I have to. I think she never got a chance in like four hours of footage to say like, well, but you all were participating in this as well. So why didn't you just block the account? But no, you were like trying to participate. So it really was compelling from start to finish. And I mean, how funny that this mole sells, quote, baby swaddlers on Etsy. Like that's a bunting. That's what that is. Sarah: [50:07] I don't think it's good, but it is one of the best hours of Real Housewives. So if it can be great without being good, it is. I'm not sure if that's possible or if anyone else on the panel agrees, but this presentation was also very good and great and interesting to contemplate something, an episode like this, that it's like you have to zhuzh the framework a little of the discussion. Tara: [50:36] Right. Well, we I mean, this is what we say every time we consider a Real Housewife. And it's not like this is the first like it's the it can be the greatest as what it's setting out to do. It's not in competition with, you know, the Americans or something. although no i'm just kidding you know we've talked about real housewives episodes in the past of course in this context i feel like i get it more post-presentation in terms of the stuff that didn't actually make it on screen but would have been known i guess to i mean i don't know how much of it was on screen earlier in the season before this either or if you would this is just what you would glean from reading housewives social media but the all of the business about But like how long Monica essentially planned this long con to like get on the show, that was not clear to me from the actual episode. That's intertextual stuff that's interesting that I, you know, that Anne said in the presentation that certainly gives this more heft, but gives context to what we're seeing. But it's not part of the narrative that is presented in the episode itself. And I agree that there could have been more time given to Monica, like, you know, shooting it back at them. Although it does seem like that's something she's holding back for strategically for reunion purposes because she has more to say. But I get that this is a huge bombshell. Tara: [51:58] I'm not there. Like the whole business of, you know, multiple people were running this account. Like there's just there's too many people. There's a lot of gaps I would like to see filled in. I don't know how Heather got as far as she did, especially if her source mainly to start with is this other person, Tanisha, who's like a former, the hairdresser, who's a former mutual friend of Monica and Heather. And then it's like she, but she was part of it, too. And like the cell block tangle line of it was great. You know, shooting it back in her face, receipts, timelines. That's, you know, that's very impactful. And I get that. And I understand that this would have, like, gagged you in the moment after you've watched the whole season. But for me, just watching this one episode, I sort of was like, this is, it's going on too long. And the part where they're all sitting outside in a terrible weather situation is definitely part of it and adds to the overall effect. but it didn't get me there in terms of the reveal and maybe it's you know maybe it's me i'm i'm looking for more scandal and i realize how ridiculous that is as somebody who only watches the new real housewives of new york who are probably all about to get fired because they're so boring but this this didn't work as well on me as i had hoped i. Sarah: [53:16] Just wanted to interject something that i had forgotten to mention which is when heather like i don't care for heather and I'm not really on her side, not on anyone's side, because who cares? When she had that sort of heartfelt, like, we already have gone through this with the Jen Shah situation, she, like, hit me in the face, and it was abusive, and I had to cover that up, but I, like, went and carried water for her and defended her, and we, as a group, cannot go through that again. I think that that was... I was not touched by that, but I was struck by that, that like that particular breaking of the fourth wall, when it comes to these franchises, there's always a little bit of like the actual timeline that you're in is like 17 months ahead of what you're actually seeing sometimes. and people like you know screaming at each other through prez hilton or delisted or whatever but this really felt like oh like i i am kind of on her side a little bit actually because it's just been a really long like that's not easy for them to have to like you know sit on those couches and be like we're hoping for the best like okay so yeah that was that's not that's unusual at least i. Kathryn: [54:30] Just need to interject that i believe the current cast the new cast of the real housewives of New York have, in fact, all been fired because they are, in fact, all too boring. Tara: [54:38] Well, you know, I do have nine episodes on the DVR that I have still not watched. So clearly, I agree. They are too boring for me. One more thing before I pass it off to Dave. I forgot to say the funniest credit was promotional consideration furnished by the Bermuda Tourism Board because I'm sure they really felt like they got their money's worth for this episode. It really makes me want to go to Bermuda. Dave: [54:58] Yeah. Kathryn: [54:58] The triangle table is funny, Tara. You gotta give me the triangle table. Yeah. Tara: [55:06] That was pretty good. Dave: [55:08] Yeah, I do find rich people unknowingly boring in this sort of show, but like, I got to give it up for how they crafted this episode and made a lot of what they had to work with, you know, because the confrontation at the end is delicious in that way. I mean, I'd be happy never to watch another Housewives episode in my life. So I have to don the alternate Dave hat where he washes this and try to filter it through there like we did the first time Housewives was on. And yeah, I mean, this is sort of a delicious comeuppance for one of the characters. It was a long time bubbling. So I get the cathartic release that you would get as a fan of the show when it happens. And to Ant's point, one of the very few things on Housewives you didn't know about ahead of time makes it all the better, I imagine. For me, the gold standard for this sort of thing in the reality show sphere is still the Mitchell backstab on Survivor. I still think they've yet to do better than that as sort of a jaw drop moment. But this was pretty good. And there was enough along the way that I was like, what the fuck? I'm like, oh, Jesus. Jesus fucking Christ, these people. Like, there is the first scene of somebody, maybe Whitney. Is it the one that had a hangover and she was in bed? Is that Whitney? Tara: [56:20] Waking up, by the way, with the most amount of makeup any person has ever woken up in. Continue. Sarah: [56:26] That's some Donna Martin and Paris shit. Yeah. Dave: [56:29] Wake up in air giant air quotes i mean the air quotes are implied i would hope she wakes up yes and full beautiful unsmeared makeup and she like turns over and she's like you know obviously acting groggy but she like reaches over to get her phone from the the uh her side table there's like three crowns on the side table i had no context for that i assumed she had like a princess party or something like who knows but like weird stuff like that throughout the episode usually Usually, a lot of people yelling at a table just makes me tune out. you know, knowing that there was something coming. I did stay, I did stick around and I did enjoy when it actually happened. And there's something about seeing somebody try to recover from getting called out on something they don't have a defense for and seeing how quickly it devolves into, which like didn't take that long. And that went on for a while too, where they're all just shouting each other and they don't have the capacity to form an argument so they just yell back it was like it was beck and call yeah well you're a stupid whore you're a stupid whore yeah well i think you're a stupid whore you're a stupid whore it just like goes on for that like it's so, stupid but i get it as a whole package and i'm happy for the people that enjoyed it so i think i can uh put aside my hate for this type of show and uh give this yes but let's make official shall we and go vote catherine what do you think here you think this is canon worthy or not yeah. Kathryn: [57:58] This is the yes not only was the table in the shape of a triangle. Dave: [58:01] But then they. Kathryn: [58:02] Made a triangle appear on the screen in a graphic overlay in case you had somehow missed the fact that the tables were a triangle. Dave: [58:10] Like they are giving. Kathryn: [58:11] You everything what else could you want. Dave: [58:13] Hey have we got Catherine her Christmas gift yet? Because I got an idea. Sarah? Sarah: [58:21] I would like to say, now that we've seen it done this efficiently, there is zero reason to tolerate any Real Housewives episode that doesn't have this much going on in it, but you just don't, you just aren't going to know until you've tried to watch it. But I'm glad I watched this one, and it's a yes for me. Dave: [58:39] All right. Tara? Tara: [58:40] It's a no for me, but, you know. Sarah: [58:42] You got Dave, but not Tara. What a world. Love it. Tara: [58:45] Thank you for the presentation and the extra color because that, you know, that does help. But in terms of the episode on its own, it's a no for me. Dave: [58:52] All right. One last thing while we're doing 10,000 parenthetical injections into this canon presentation. There's this one, one of them. It's got a giant necklace, diamond necklace that also has a giant cross hanging down from it. And she's wearing a leopard something or other that includes leopard gloves, leopard print gloves. And my favorite part is when she's like, first of all, that's a lot of luck and it's terrible. Second of all, the tag was sticking out of the gloves, which I thought was just a little nice little editing touch. Yeah, I'm going to say yes to this one. So that means. Real Housewives of Salt Lake City season four, episode 16. Mysteries revealed. You are hereby inducted into the extra hot break camp. Dave: [59:42] Americans winner and will not tolerate a loser. Nope. It is time for winners and losers of the week. Sarah has this week's winner. Sarah: [59:53] Yes, Law & Order SVU is getting Kelly Geddish back as a series regular for season 27. That's it. Really, it's Law & Order SVU viewers because her character, Amanda Rollins, is a good character and should have been maintained better than it was. And the show should not have been jerking her around to this extent over the last five seasons. The actual show is kind of a loser for doing that, but I'm glad that she put that aside and is back. Dave: [1:00:22] Tara, who is this week's loser? Tara: [1:00:24] It's Tom Hardy, who revealed this week that his body is shot after years of intense action sequences. And we are continuing to watch him in Mobland or Mobland. Yeah. And it's hard to do that, knowing that every time his whole body's a knife, his whole body probably really hurts. So sending him virtual a leave. I hope you're taking care of yourself, buddy. Dave: [1:00:51] Speaking about taking care of yourself, you know what time it is? Goodbye. Sarah: [1:00:54] Game time. Game time. Dave: [1:01:06] All right, Catherine's got a hard out. We got to go fast, go fast, answer fast, think fast, win fast. This is the second game time of the season. The scores are Sarah with one, everybody else with zero. Today we are playing Survivor Round Two from John Connors, who earns himself an extra credit. Topic of his choosing plus a free shirt from the Extra Hot Greats store at throughmethods.com. In Survivor, you will guess the number of actors who were in both the first and last episodes of a long-running TV show. I will ask all players to lock in their guests and be truthful and not change it after they've locked in. Closest to the pin gets two points. If there's a tie, each person gets one point. After the number of overlapping debut finale actors has been established, We will hot potato the names of the actors until they are all named or all players are eliminated with an incorrect guess. One point per correct guess during hot potato. We've got 15 questions. Hopefully we can get them all in. If not, we will just end when we need to end. No challenge zones today. Are we ready to play Survivor round two? Tara: [1:02:14] Nearly, but you need to update our listeners on your gifts from the last non-regulation game time. Dave: [1:02:19] Right. Tara couldn't decide which calendar I should get as a prize. It was up to Tara. So I got two fabulous 50s, early 60s calendars, one of which is like this weird combination of a farmer's almanac and a zodiac horoscope. So I don't know what's going on with those people and those occult farmers in the Midwest, but the calendar knows all. All right. First show, you're all going to lock in a guess. Again, the number of cast members that were in the first episode and also the last episode. The show is the Mary Tyler Moore Show. So think about who's in the start and who's in the end. Who left? Sarah is locked in. Tara, Catherine, still thinking, playing out. Na-na-na-na-na-na-na-na-na-na-na-na-na-na-na-na-na-na-na-na-na. Because you're all locked in and now you know it. All right, here we go. Sarah D. Bunting, what is your guess? Sarah: [1:03:14] Seven. Dave: [1:03:15] Catherine. Kathryn: [1:03:16] Oh, I only had four. Dave: [1:03:18] Tara. Tara: [1:03:18] I think five. Dave: [1:03:19] All right. That means that Sarah and Tara were both one away from the pin on either side of it. That was six people. So you both get one point here. Tara: [1:03:26] Okay. Dave: [1:03:27] And now we're going to name either the actors or the character names. Either one is fine. Who are those six actors? If you get it, you get to continue. If you get it wrong, you're out of the loop for Hot Potato. Oh, wait a sec. Hot Potato. Hot Potato. Hot Potato. Hot Potato. All right, Catherine, start us off. Kathryn: [1:03:52] I mean, Mary Tyler Moore. Dave: [1:03:53] Mary Tyler Moore is correct. Sarah. Sarah: [1:03:55] Lou Grant. Dave: [1:03:56] Tara. Tara: [1:03:58] Marie Slaughter. Dave: [1:03:59] Correct. Back to Catherine. Three more. We've had Mary Tyler Moore, Mary Richards, Ed Asner, Lou Grant, and Gavin McLeod, Marie Slaughter. Kathryn: [1:04:09] No, I'm out. I'm out. Dave: [1:04:11] All right. Back to Sarah. Sarah: [1:04:13] Rhoda Morgenstern. Dave: [1:04:15] Correct. Tara. Tara: [1:04:17] Ted Baxter. Dave: [1:04:19] Correct. One more. Sarah. Sarah: [1:04:21] Sue Ann? Sue Ellen? Sue Ann? Dave: [1:04:23] Nope, she was introduced later. One left. Tara, do you know it? Tara: [1:04:26] Is it Phyllis? Dave: [1:04:27] Phyllis. Cloris Leachman as Phyllis. Her and Rhoda come back in the finale just for a goodbye, but they're both in it. All right, so lots of points there. It's Law & Order, season 1 to 20. That's the original run, so not the revival of Law & Order, but we're talking about the original run, seasons 1 to 20. Think about how many people were in the finale, and then rewind back to the pilot. Lock in your guests, please. Sarah D. Bunting, start us off. Sarah: [1:04:55] Zero. Dave: [1:04:56] Tara? Tara: [1:04:56] Yeah, zero. Dave: [1:04:57] Catherine? Kathryn: [1:04:58] I was also going to say zero. Dave: [1:05:00] You all are correct. It is zero. You both get one point. No hot potato around there. Next show is The Facts of Life. I will let you know that was the only zero show we are doing today. Sarah: [1:05:10] Okay, got it. Dave: [1:05:12] Facts of Life, who was in the pilot and the finale of Facts of Life. Tara is locked in. She's taking the good. Sarah's taking the bad. Catherine is there with the facts of life. All right, Tara. Tara: [1:05:25] Four? Dave: [1:05:26] Four to Catherine. Kathryn: [1:05:28] I've never seen the facts of life. Dave: [1:05:30] Okay. Kathryn: [1:05:30] And so I will say three. Dave: [1:05:32] All right, Sarah. Sarah: [1:05:33] I also had four. Dave: [1:05:35] Bullseye for Catherine with three. All right, so she gets two points there. Tara, facts of life. Start naming them. We have three actor characters. Tara: [1:05:45] Okay, Blair. Dave: [1:05:46] Blair is one of them. Yes. Catherine? Kathryn: [1:05:49] There was the mom figure. She wasn't the mom, though, but she was like the lady. She was the old lady, and I don't know her name or who played. Dave: [1:05:58] All right. So we're going to buzz you on that one. But we all know who you're talking about. Kathryn: [1:06:02] We do. Dave: [1:06:03] Sarah? Sarah: [1:06:03] We do. Mrs. Garrett. Played by Charlotte Rae. Dave: [1:06:07] Incorrect. Sarah: [1:06:07] Oh, really? Tara: [1:06:09] I think Joe? Shit! Dave: [1:06:13] Blair, Tootie, and Natalie. Tara: [1:06:15] Blair, Tootie, and Natalie. Dave: [1:06:16] So one extra point for Tara there. Next show, Criminal Minds, original CBS run, seasons 1 to 15. So again, not talking about the reboot or revival or whatever the heck that was. Anybody here actually watch Criminal Minds? Kathryn: [1:06:31] No. Dave: [1:06:31] So these are all just going to be big swings. All right, Catherine, what do you got here? Kathryn: [1:06:35] Four. Dave: [1:06:36] Four. All right, Sarah. Sarah: [1:06:38] Two. Dave: [1:06:39] Tara. Tara: [1:06:40] I also had two. Dave: [1:06:41] You are both bullseyes. You both get a point there. It is two. Can anybody actually name a character or actor? It might be easier since we also accept actors. Let's find out. Catherine, any guesses? Kathryn: [1:06:53] A white man. He's a white man. Dave: [1:06:56] Correct. Kathryn: [1:06:57] No, I can't. Dave: [1:06:58] All right. Kathryn: [1:06:59] Oh, wait, wait. No, it's all right. It's okay. Dave: [1:07:02] It's all right. Oh, okay. Sarah. Sarah: [1:07:06] Matthew Gray Goobler? Bubler? Gabler? Dave: [1:07:09] The Gray Goobler. Spider-Man's least colorful foe. Sarah: [1:07:15] Tara. Tara: [1:07:16] This is tough because I think she left and came back, but is it Hadgett Brewster? Dave: [1:07:20] It is not. So Sarah, you get a chance to sweep here. Sarah: [1:07:23] Who was also a white guy accused of being abusive? It doesn't narrow it down. What else was he in? Tara: [1:07:31] I think he got mine. Dave: [1:07:31] I'm going to buzz you because it's not that guy. Tara: [1:07:33] Thomas Gibson, but I think he left before the end. Dave: [1:07:35] In addition to the Gray Goobler, who played Dr. Spencer Reed, we had the character Penelope Garcia. Tara: [1:07:40] That's it. Garcia. Dave: [1:07:42] The blonde tech lady. Tara: [1:07:44] Yep. Dave: [1:07:45] All in the Family is our next show. All in the Family. This is, of course, just All in the Family, not Archie Bunker's Place afterwards. Waiting for Sarah to lock in. Everybody's locked in. Sarah, what is your guess? How many were in the pilot and the finale? Sarah: [1:08:00] Three. Dave: [1:08:01] Tara. Tara: [1:08:02] I mean, you would think that they came back, but I still think I'm going to say two. Dave: [1:08:06] Catherine. Kathryn: [1:08:07] I had three. Dave: [1:08:08] Tara, Ariana's correct. Two. Sarah D. Bent, you can start us off here. Name them. Name one. Sarah: [1:08:15] Edith. Dave: [1:08:16] Edith is one of them. The other Tara. Tara: [1:08:20] Archie. Dave: [1:08:21] Archie is correct. So, Catherine, you're locked out. Next show, Angel. Angel. Kathryn: [1:08:27] Oh. Dave: [1:08:29] Everybody's locked in. All right, Tara, let's hear it. Tara: [1:08:32] Two. Dave: [1:08:33] Catherine. Kathryn: [1:08:38] I say three. Dave: [1:08:40] For somebody who's locked in, that took you a long time to remember that. Kathryn: [1:08:43] Yeah. Dave: [1:08:44] Okay. Sarah. Sarah: [1:08:45] I also said three. Dave: [1:08:47] Two, three, and three means Tara gets it. It's one. Tara: [1:08:51] Ah. Kathryn: [1:08:52] Wow. Dave: [1:08:52] So Tara, you're first in the hot potato. What is the one? Tara: [1:08:55] Is it David Moriannick? Dave: [1:08:57] Yeah. There we go. Next show. Here we go. Beverly Hills 90210. Oh, the characters that were in the first episode and the last episode over the 10 seasons, he wants to say. All right. Everybody's locked in. We are starting with Catherine here. Kathryn: [1:09:15] This is also not my show. I'm going to go with four. Dave: [1:09:18] Four. All right. To Sarah. Sarah: [1:09:20] Three. Dave: [1:09:21] And to Tara. Tara: [1:09:23] Six. Dave: [1:09:23] Tara is the closest with six. The answer, in fact. Kathryn: [1:09:26] Is seven. Wow. Dave: [1:09:28] So let's go through it. Catherine, you get first crack at it. Kathryn: [1:09:31] This is, I, guys, I'm, it's. Dave: [1:09:35] You must have one, at least one that's got through to you through osmosis. Kathryn: [1:09:39] Was Heather Locklear on this one? Dave: [1:09:42] Oh, that's sad. All right, as it was meant to be, face off between Sarah, who's next, and Tara. Sarah: [1:09:48] Donna Martin. Dave: [1:09:49] Donna Martin, yes. Tori Spelling. Tara: [1:09:53] Brandon. Dave: [1:09:54] Brandon. Tara: [1:09:55] Walsh. Yep, by video. Yep. Dave: [1:09:58] Sarah. Sarah: [1:09:59] Steve Sanders. Dave: [1:09:59] Steve Sanders Ian Ziering Dylan McKay Luke Perry David Silver Brian Austin Green Kelly Taylor Jenny Garth One left, In the pilot and the finale, One left. Sarah. Sarah: [1:10:26] One left. Shit. I don't know. Cindy Walsh? I don't remember. Tara: [1:10:35] Is it Mrs. Teasley? Shit. Who is it? Dave: [1:10:38] It's Andrea. Tara: [1:10:40] Oh, God. Right, of course. Sarah: [1:10:42] Oh, sorry. Tara: [1:10:43] She left for a long time. Then she came back for the wedding. Dave: [1:10:45] Always forgotten. Tara: [1:10:46] How apropos. Dave: [1:10:47] All right. Next show is Two and a Half Men. Two and a Half Men. Sarah: [1:10:52] Oh, Christ. Dave: [1:10:53] Tara's locked in. Catherine's locked in. Sarah's locked in, but kind of not. Sarah, what's your number? Sarah: [1:11:00] Three. Dave: [1:11:01] Tara? Tara: [1:11:01] One. Sarah: [1:11:02] Really wanted to say it a half. Kathryn: [1:11:03] Two. Dave: [1:11:04] Three, one, and two. Sarah's closest to the pin. The answer is five. So, Sarah D. Bunting, you're starting us off. Name a character or actor that was in both the first and last episode of Two and a Half Men. Sarah: [1:11:20] John Cryer. Dave: [1:11:21] John Cryer Allen, correct. We all know who isn't in the finale. Kathryn: [1:11:25] Yeah. Tara: [1:11:26] Well, he came back for dream sequences, though, so he might have been. But I guess you said it's not. Dave: [1:11:32] Or did I? Tara: [1:11:33] Holland Taylor. Dave: [1:11:35] Evelyn. All right, we are to Catherine. Kathryn: [1:11:38] The half. Dave: [1:11:39] The half. Sarah: [1:11:40] I want to give it to you, but no. Kathryn: [1:11:42] Thank you. No. Dave: [1:11:43] Sarah. Sarah: [1:11:44] I mean... What was the fucking kid's name? Angus? Someone who played the half, who later was a whole? That's all I got. Sorry. Angus somebody. Tara: [1:11:55] Angus T. Jones! Dave: [1:11:58] That is the actor playing Jake. Yes? All right. Tara: [1:12:00] The most useless knowledge a person can have. Dave: [1:12:03] Two left and your only person still in Hot Potato, Tara. Tara: [1:12:06] Oh. Melanie Linsky? Dave: [1:12:08] Yep. Rose and? Kathryn: [1:12:10] Melanie Linsky? Tara: [1:12:11] Did they bring back Charlie Sheen as a ghost for the finale? Dave: [1:12:14] They did not. Ah, we're talking Maren Hinkle as Judah. Tara: [1:12:18] Oh, sure. Of course. Sarah: [1:12:19] Oh, Jesus. Dave: [1:12:20] Wow. Okay. You got more of the five than I definitely thought you were going to get there. All right. This is going to take us into our score break. The show is NYPD Blue. Tara: [1:12:29] Oh, boy. Kathryn: [1:12:30] Oh, no. Dave: [1:12:31] Long running show. Cops are coming. They're going. Playing their characters in the first and last episodes of NYPD Blue. Everybody's locked in. Tara, what's your answer? Tara: [1:12:39] Three. Dave: [1:12:40] Catherine. Kathryn: [1:12:42] I'm going to go with three. Dave: [1:12:43] Sarah. Sarah: [1:12:44] Four. Dave: [1:12:45] Four. All right. We have, with one, a tie. Tara and Catherine closest with their guess of three, but there's only one, and Tara is first. Tara: [1:12:55] Sipowitz. Dave: [1:12:56] Sipowitz is correct. Yes. All right. Kathryn: [1:12:58] Why is it only the ones where it's... No, I knew Angel, and I knew Sipowitz. Those were the ones that I knew. Dave: [1:13:04] I know we didn't do picky, but there is a guessing order to all of these, and I have been following it. I don't know how opaque it seems, because things are guesses, and there's hot potatoes and everything. I absolutely engineered it so you would be frustrated, Catherine. Kathryn: [1:13:17] Yes, thank you. Dave: [1:13:18] All right, it's time for the scores, please. Tara: [1:13:20] I have Catherine with five, Sarah with 14, me with 18. Dave: [1:13:24] All right, that sounds correct. Let's get back to it. We've got six more shows to get through. The next one is Smallville. Smallville. Once again, we're asking how many character actors were in the first and last episode of Smallville. Locking in, Sarah's locked in, Tara's locked in, Catherine is locked in. All right, Catherine, how many do you think fit that Venn diagram bill? Kathryn: [1:13:47] Four. Dave: [1:13:48] Sarah? Sarah: [1:13:49] I agree, four. Tara: [1:13:50] I had four as well. Dave: [1:13:52] Wow, everybody is closest to the pin because you all guessed the same. The answer was six. So, Catherine, we're starting with you for... Hot potato, hot potato, hot potato, hot potato, hot potato, hot potato, hot potato, hot potato. All right, give us one. Kathryn: [1:14:09] Clark Kent. Dave: [1:14:10] Clark Kent. Yes, Superman, correct. To Sarah. Sarah: [1:14:14] Lex Luthor. Correct. Dave: [1:14:16] Michael Rosenbaum. Tara. Tara: [1:14:19] Uh, Chloe. Dave: [1:14:20] Chloe Sullivan, played by Allison Mack. Back to Catherine. Kathryn: [1:14:25] Ma Kent. Dave: [1:14:26] Ma Kent. Oh, we'll take Ma Kent, sure. What the hell? That's Martha Kent. Annette O'Toole. Next one, Sarah. Sarah: [1:14:35] Lana Lane? Dave: [1:14:38] No, Sarah's out. Tara. Tara: [1:14:40] Is it Lana Lang? No. Dave: [1:14:44] Back to being a stickler we've got uh two left on the board i'm just gonna say don't overthink it you've already had one half of something you should be saying just go yeah that. Kathryn: [1:14:56] Was my guess was pocket but i can't remember he's alive in this one right yeah pocket sure. Dave: [1:15:01] Yeah we're not gonna set pa can't here no we are of course we are yeah that is jonathan kent jonathan this is all right so everybody else is out so you get a stab at the last one it's not lana not lana no No. Tara: [1:15:14] They had a friend, and I can't remember his name. Dave: [1:15:16] Super friend. All right, doesn't sound good again. John Glover as Lionel Luther. Tara: [1:15:23] Oh, not their friend. Sarah: [1:15:24] Oh, yeah. Like the opposite. All right. Dave: [1:15:26] All right. The love boat. The love boat. Guessing how many were in Bosch episodes. Sarah's locked in. Catherine and Tara are locked in. Sarah D. Bunting, what is your guess? Sarah: [1:15:39] Five. Dave: [1:15:40] Five? All right, Tara. Tara: [1:15:42] I also had five. Dave: [1:15:43] And Catherine? Kathryn: [1:15:44] Oh, I only had three. Dave: [1:15:45] All right. That means you all get one point. You are all on one side or the other of four. Four is the number. Sarah D. Bunting, hot potato time. Name the character or actor in both. Sarah: [1:15:59] Captain Stubing. Dave: [1:16:00] Clap, clap, clap, clap, clap. Gavin McCloud? Tara: [1:16:03] Gopher? Dave: [1:16:04] Gopher. No. Tara: [1:16:07] Oh, no. Dave: [1:16:09] Catherine? Sarah: [1:16:09] Wow. Kathryn: [1:16:10] All I knew was captains. Dave: [1:16:13] All right. So you can run the board here, Sarah, if you can get the other three. Sarah: [1:16:17] Bernie Coppell, doctor. Dave: [1:16:19] Correct. Dr. Adam Bricker. Sarah: [1:16:21] Isaac. Dave: [1:16:22] Isaac, the bartender. Correct. And one more. Sarah: [1:16:25] Vicky. Dave: [1:16:28] Cruise director, Julie McCoy. That was your last one. Nice to get three, though. All right. Getting towards the end of the game. Next show, Seinfeld. Seinfeld how many were in the first and last episodes of Seinfeld everybody is locked in there the furrowed brows tell a story Tara what is your answer here three all right Catherine, You're locked in. Give me the number. Stop thinking. Kathryn: [1:16:57] I was going to say five. I was going to say five. Dave: [1:17:01] Sarah. Sarah: [1:17:02] Splitting the diff with four. Dave: [1:17:05] Tara is correct. Three is the bullseye. Tara, you are also starting Hot Potato. Tara: [1:17:10] Jerry Seinfeld. Dave: [1:17:12] Is correct. Catherine. Kathryn: [1:17:14] Jason Alexander. Dave: [1:17:15] Jason Alexander is correct. And Sarah. Sarah: [1:17:19] Elaine. Dave: [1:17:20] Incorrect. Tara: [1:17:21] Not in the pilot. Dave: [1:17:22] Not in the pilot. Tara. Tara: [1:17:24] Michael Richards. Dave: [1:17:25] Michael Richards as Kramer is your third. All right. The next show is The Practice. The Practice. Sarah: [1:17:33] Bryce. Dave: [1:17:35] Tara's locked in. Catherine's locked in. Sarah's locked in. Let's hear from Catherine first. What's your answer for The Practice? Kathryn: [1:17:41] Four. Dave: [1:17:42] Four for Catherine. Two, Sarah. Sarah: [1:17:45] Two. Dave: [1:17:46] And Tara. Tara: [1:17:47] Three. Dave: [1:17:48] Catherine is bullseye correct with four. And she starts off. What is your first actor or character name? Kathryn: [1:17:56] The Dylan one. Dylan Mc... The Dylan... It's an M. Dave: [1:18:01] Mick... Kathryn: [1:18:02] McDermott. Dave: [1:18:05] Correct. Dylan McDermott played Bobby. To Sarah. Sarah: [1:18:10] Cameron Manheim. Dave: [1:18:11] Points, points, point, point, point. Sarah: [1:18:13] Oh, nice. Tara: [1:18:14] Steve Harris? Dave: [1:18:15] Yes, Eugene Young is the character. And back to Catherine. One more left. Kathryn: [1:18:21] Was that annoying guy with the little beady eyes? What are you talking about? And he has a little nose like this. Dave: [1:18:30] Yeah. No, probably not. No. Sarah? Sarah: [1:18:35] But a luco. Dave: [1:18:38] All right. Last chance. Tara? Tara: [1:18:41] Laura Flynn Boyle? Dave: [1:18:42] No. The actor is Kate Burton, played ADA Susan Alexander. Tara: [1:18:47] Oh. Dave: [1:18:47] Huh. Sarah: [1:18:48] Okay. Dave: [1:18:48] The penultimate show is Designing Women. Designing Women. How many were on the pilot and the finale of Designing Women? Sarah's locked in. Catherine's locked in. Tara is locked in. Let's start with Sarah. Sarah: [1:19:03] Three. Dave: [1:19:04] Tara? Tara: [1:19:05] I also had three. Dave: [1:19:06] And Catherine? Kathryn: [1:19:07] I had four. Dave: [1:19:08] Tara and Sarah are closest, but not exactly there. There's only two. So we're going to start with Sarah to name one of those two. Sarah: [1:19:17] Julia Sugarbaker. Dave: [1:19:18] That's Dixie Carter, correct. Tara? Tara: [1:19:21] Mary Jo. Dave: [1:19:22] Mary Jo played by Annie Potts. Yes, those are the two. Ooh, all right. Can I get a score break here before we do our last question, please? Tara: [1:19:32] Sure, I have Catherine with 14, Sarah with 23, me with 28. Dave: [1:19:38] All right, let's get to our last question. Any guesses what it is? Tara: [1:19:44] Is it Melrose Place? Dave: [1:19:46] No. Tara: [1:19:46] Oh. Dave: [1:19:47] Sarah? Sarah: [1:19:48] Sopranos? Dave: [1:19:49] No. It's Benson. Tara: [1:19:52] It's Benson! Sarah: [1:19:53] Oh! Benson. Dave: [1:19:55] How many Benson characters were in the first and last episode of Benson? Is it Benson? Yes. Here we go. Locking in for Benson. Tara is locked in. Sarah is rewatching the whole series in her head. Everybody's locked in. We are starting guesses with Tara. Tara: [1:20:11] Four. Dave: [1:20:12] Four for Tara to Catherine. Kathryn: [1:20:15] I had three. Dave: [1:20:17] Three. Sarah. Sarah: [1:20:18] I had four. Dave: [1:20:20] Four is the bullseye. So you both get one point there. Tara is starting off the hot potatoes. Four actors. Four character names. Start with one. Tara: [1:20:29] Benson. Dave: [1:20:30] Benson. Yes. Of course. Two Catherine. Kathryn: [1:20:35] Took mine. Dave: [1:20:36] No other guess? Sarah. Sarah: [1:20:41] I think he's not this anymore, but Governor Gatling, James Noble. Dave: [1:20:46] James Noble, yes. Governor Eugene Xavier Gatling. Two, Tara. Sarah: [1:20:50] Xavier, okay. Tara: [1:20:52] Clayton. Dave: [1:20:53] Clayton. All right, there's two on the board still, Sarah. Sarah: [1:21:01] The kid, Missy Gold. Dave: [1:21:05] Missy Gold, correct, yes. All right, one more. You can get the point. If you can name, we've had Benson, we've had the governor, we've had Missy Gold playing Catherine, but there's still one left. It was in the pilot, it was in the finale. Sarah: [1:21:22] Inga Svensson? Dave: [1:21:24] Yes, playing Miss Gretchen. Impressive. Well done. All right. That is regulation, so we need the final scores, please. Tara: [1:21:32] All righty. Catherine has 14. Sarah has 28. I have 31. Dave: [1:21:41] All right. So Tara takes this one. I'm not going to play out the whole thing. Last question. But let's just do the number because it's a trip. The show is Gilmore Girls. What do you think the number is? Lock in. We'll make just the numbers a steel mill opportunity. So here we go. The number of Gilmore Girl characters in the first and last episodes. Catherine, what do you got here for Gilmore Girls? Kathryn: [1:22:05] Six. Dave: [1:22:06] Six. Sarah? Sarah: [1:22:08] 10. Dave: [1:22:09] Tara? Tara: [1:22:10] 4. Dave: [1:22:10] Ooh, Sarah is closest. One away. The answer was 9. Tara: [1:22:14] Damn. Dave: [1:22:15] Yeah, Lorelai, Rory, Suki, Luke, Lane, Michelle, Emily, Richard, and Miss Patty were your answers there. Tara: [1:22:23] Richard, he died. Dave: [1:22:24] Well, he's in it somehow. Tara: [1:22:25] Oh, I thought he died on the show. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe he died between, oh, I'm thinking of- He died for the revival. I'm thinking of the, yes. Dave: [1:22:32] Remember when he brought back his corpse and everybody's like, that's in poor taste. Anyways, congratulations. Sarah: [1:22:37] Ha ha ha ha ha. Dave: [1:22:42] Look at that. Ten minutes to spare. Good job, Tara. That's it for this episode of Extra Hot Great. We, the stupid and knowing humans, talked about the first season of Murderbot before going around the dial with stops at overcompensating the secret lives of Mormon wives and leverage redemption. And successfully got the Real Housewives of Salt Lake City's season four finale in the canon with a solid pitch, plus secret accounts on Twitter and Instagram questioning Dave's integrity. And it worked. That's why you got my vote. We crowned winners and losers of the week, and Tara was the winner of this week's Game Time from John. Next up, it's time for the force inning pool over on E.E.H.G., where we'll be dipping in on L.A.'s Finest. Remember, we're listening. I am David T. Cole, and on behalf of Tara Ariano. Tara: [1:23:33] No sleep, bus, club, another club, another club, plane, next place. Dave: [1:23:38] Sarah D. Bunting. Sarah: [1:23:40] I never use the word butthole. Dave: [1:23:43] And Catherine Van Arenden. Kathryn: [1:23:46] Receipts, timelines, screenshots. Dave: [1:23:49] Thanks for listening, everyone. We'll see you next time right here on Extra Hot Grand. A premium quality show. It is not even a premium quality show. Agree to disagree. All right. Stop your recording. Tara: [1:24:04] Guys, George Wendt died. Dave: [1:24:05] Oh, he went. Kathryn: [1:24:07] He went. Oh, boy. Dave: [1:24:09] I'm the first person, the last person who's going to make that joke. Goodbye.